I posted a related question in which I received really good answers that calmed me down a bit. I have another question. The reason I ask is because I am in a family situation where I am being asked, in a pushy and deceitful way, to pay for my father's expenses. I also think they may be trying to "sniff" out how much money I have or will spend so they can possibily try to get me to spend more. It would be interesting to know others' experiences so I can conduct myself in the future. The question:
Does anyone have experience in being aware of people, like relatives, friends, neighbors, associates, businesses etc. trying to determine how much money another person has or is willing to spend using casual observation means or by floating figures to see how much you have and/or are willing to spend. For example, someone you know might say "I saw a tv show about Hawaii recently. Would you ever want to go?" Then they wait for you to say something like "Yes, but it's too expensive for me." (meaning I don't have that kind of money) or "Yes, I went about 5 years ago and maybe later this spring." (meaning I do have that kind of money) The question asked has nothing to do with Hawaii, it has to do only with your finances. Has anyone experienced this?
When someone asks a personal or financial or similar question, I think it puts us on the spot, so over the years I've learned to move that "spot" back to the questioner. It skirts around the issue of whether or not to respond, how much to tell, and/or other issues.
Just turn the question around, and ask "Why do you need to know?" Or just say "that's privileged information." Then smile sweetly (or stare intently) and let them be embarrassed.
I got those kinds of questions as to what distribution I was making of my father's possessions, and got fed up very quickly, especially when people TOLD me what they wanted!
You could also respond in a more amusing way. When asked "how much", answer "not enough!" You could also jokingly ask if they're offering to contribute, how much, and how often.
The arrogance of some people in prying into others' affairs never ceases to amaze me.
Businesses are worse though. They buy people's information. When they see that there are seniors living somewhere they know that means Medicare. So then begins the solicitation for homecare services and all kinds of "care" related things.
I remember my last private-pay care assignment. An elderly couple with plenty of money. There were social workers and homecare companies practically breaking down the door to get to them. They couldn't stand it that a "business" wasn't making money off these two. "Sniffing" is a real thing.
Just ignore and move on, even if they know they have no way to get you to spend your money in a way you do not see fit.
I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of parents did the same thing your dad did: they went through hard times so their children could enjoy GOOD times; it's what parents DO. My father was an Italian immigrant who wore cardboard on the soles of his shoes b/c his parents could not afford a shoemaker. His parents sacrificed for him, to give him a better life than THEY had; he in turn quit school at 10 years old to go to work. He worked his butt off to give ME a better life than HE had; it's a dad thing. As an adult, I gave of myself to help my elderly parents, but I did not give them money. Even though my dad made some sacrifices for me that did not go unnoticed or unappreciated; the sacrifices he made for me were of his own choosing.
I think to do what you & your brother are doing, giving luxury services to dad that aren't required, out of a sense of obligation for HIS sacrifices for you as children, is somewhat skewed logic. A parent does what they do for their children out of pure love; not in hopes of repayment down the road (as I'm sure you know).
Times are hard now, even for those with lots of money; inflation is very high, gas prices are ridiculous, investments aren't paying what they once did, even the stock market is plunging. It's kind of unrealistic for dad or you & your brother to continue to be paying for luxury services right now, especially since they aren't required!!! Down the road, dad may NEED real nursing services and you'll have spent ALL THIS MONEY on 'luxuries' he didn't need for all these years, then have to dump a whole lot more money on services he urgently NEEDS. It may be a good idea to rethink what you & your brother are doing here!
You say your brother won't listen to reason or have a talk, but I'll bet he will if it's with your dad ALSO. A Come to Jesus meeting sounds to me like it's in order now. Save this wasted money for when it's truly NEEDED, that's my advice. You should be entitled to lie on the beach when you want to, w/o guilt, your brother should be allowed to stop spending so much money on dad unnecessarily, and all of these matters should be talked about openly & honestly!
My brother won't listen; rather he'll hear it but it won't matter. Some people have one thing in mind and nothing, I mean nothing, will change that.
But thank you and everyone who has offered ideas and opinions. I definitely feel better about the situation.
Based on some of the OPs comments below i do not think their dad would want all these extra services (God only knows what these are or what that even means) if he knew the problems it was causing.
Ironically it is not daughter or brother that is paying for this lavish lifestyle dad is enjoying but brothers wife from an inheritance she received from her own family.
If the OP truly believes that her father deserves to live this way then the fair thing to do would be to split this 50/50.
The logical thing is for the brother and sister to talk to dad about what is going on and maybe come up with a way to stop the excessive spending and let dad now take care of his own living expenses.
If you had a relationship with brother before this started don't destroy it over this.
Let I have said, talking will do nothing. It's clear my brother speaks mostly by his actions.
I am very curious what sort of service is being provided to your dad that he can't/won't afford himself that he needs brother to pay for, and that brother now needs YOU to pay for.
Look, I just got off a cruise where we could order coffee and croissants brought to our room every morning for no charge. Did we enjoy it? Yes, It is necessary for us to have that level of service for the rest of our lives? No.
I'm thinking that at some point, your brother looked at your dad and thinking him to be "very old" thought, "gee, the guy isn't going to be around very long, let's make his life comfortable." And now is YEARS later and dad is still with you.
Time to re-evaluate. I agree that brother isn't going about it the right way, but consider that the market is down and the cash flow from SIL's nest egg may not be throwing off the income that it did.
There are all kinds of variables in play here.
You are assuming that dad's savings, investments and income like pension and SS won't pay for an adequate retirement.
It seems to me that some honest, open communication is in order here.
Dad can live fine without me or my brothers contributions to his retirement. We just want it to be better and more enjoyable.
My brother has one and only goal right now: To get me to pay for the service provider. No honest, open communication will do anything. Regrdless there will be noticeable resentment on his part. This I know for sure.
As others have said it's nobody's business how much money you make. But if you feel you have to defend yourself to your brother I personally would say that it isn't your fault that dad never saved enough for retirement and leave it at that. If dad is poor the government will take care of his basic needs (and then some). The number of free and subsidized services for people with low incomes is astonishing. Perhaps check and see if dad qualifies for any of them and consider that as part of your 'contribution' to dad's upkeep.
In my case I am being shamed because the appearance that I don't have money. Now, when I tell my brother I'm going on vacation at the beach his thinking will be "Oh, you don't have enough to pay for dad's services (which he assumed from the start in consultation with dad which was the reason for his long-distance move and my "abandonment") but you'll go and spend money to lay on the beach!"
Do you feel some guilt that you can't help pay for Dad's care? If so, maybe this is why you are reading into what people say, that you think they are fishing.
If you are taking care of Dad, then you are taking the place of an aide. Your time is money. So you are contributing to Dads care. If brother volunteered to pay for Dads care that is on him. If he no longer wants to and Dad can't afford to pay for aides, then place him in LTC and apply for Medicaid.
My Aunt chose to live in a western state miles away from our home state of NJ. She married and worked out there. Her Moms brother lived in the area so Aunt thought it would be a good idea to have Mom move out and live with her widowed brother and be nearer to Aunt. Her Mom agreed. Living with brother did not work out so Aunt took her in because she wanted her mother near her. Mom lived to be 93. Aunt called her brother in NJ to tell him Mom was getting too much to handle wanting him to take on her care. Brothers wife was already caring for her Mom who came for a visit and never left. So brother said no. Aunt was not happy. Uncle told her "you were the one that wanted her to move out there with you".
My Aunt ended up placing her Mom in a home.
What I am trying to say is Aunt made a choice now she had to live with that choice. It wasn't fair that she then tried to put the responsibility on her brother when she could no longer care for Mom. So, if your brother doesn't want to pay for Dads care, then he needs to find other options not expect you to pick up the slack because he no longer wants the responsibility. It was his choice to move Dad closer and he excepted the assignment of POA.
If Dad has no money, there are resources out there. There's Medicaid "in home" care. Office of Aging maybe able to supply an aide. Neither will be 24/7 so then brother can just pay for aides to fill in.
By the way, his wife inherited the millions, not him. She has no obligation to spend her money on Dad. If she keeps that money separate from their marital assets and they divorce, he does not get any of that inheritance because its hers.
I also think dad is selfish in expecting brother to pay for his living expenses for the rest of his life.
Brothers wife is right to feel resentful and want it to stop. Why should all her money be used for dad?
I so agree that neither should be paying for Dad's care. Dad's own funds go to take care of him.
OP mentioned that her brother "shames her" over the money. Frankly there isn't any shame in not having money. So I am just not getting any of this at all.
I find that most places that have a "need to know" are pretty up front. For instance, an ALF will ask your OUTRIGHT what finances the elder has. Because they need to know. An ALF will only let a person in if they have a way to pay.
You last query to us involved a multimillionaire brother (yours) asking you to go to sign for care for your Dad when he doesn't want it and you cannot afford to pay for it.
There is no shame in not having money. There is no shame in HAVING money. And there is no shame in a brother asking a sister "I have no money but Mom needs some housekeeping help. How are you set up? Together can we scrape up some funds???" The answer is either "Oh, I am so tapped; I wish I could help but I can't" or "Let me check the budget and see if I can help" or whatever.
Who CARES how much money people have, unless you are looking to borrow some. I mean really, I cannot imagine how or why someone would ever want to "sniff out" what another has unless they are trying to pull a scam and get some of it. Some of the best dressers with the biggest cars have debt to their necks and some of the most raggedy coupon clippers are sitting on piles of the stuff.
And I think it verges on almost a sort of mild paranoia to think someone asking "Would you ever want to go to Hawaii" is trying to find out, for some nefarious reason of their own, how much money you have.
In your last post to us said you were being "shamed" by your brother because you haven't got money and he does. Again, there is NO SHAME in not having money. Next time they ask tell them "just as soon as I win the lottery, but right now I couldn't even afford the Moscow Mule at poolside!" They will smile.
I would trust their reasons.
It just seems like we are missing pieces of Lisa’s story here. Like did she believe her relocation would automatically make her co poa with brother and now bros saying it’s gotta be 50/50 on the finances? If it can’t be, can she adequately prove she can do same or better as these aides, offer to integrate and learn from them? I kinda doubt as she’s calling them service providers.
When my Dad died my SIL thought it would be a good idea if we all sent her money to make up for what she was not getting anymore in SS. Out of 3 of us, I was the only one retired. I hate it when people assume we have money. Out of the 3 of us, I lived the most simply. My SIL refused to send money for Mom's Birthday and Christmas opting for buying gifts Mom never used. Now she wanted us to send money every month? This is also a person who has good intentions but never follows thru. Turned out Mom did OK and my nephew living with her gave her a little xtra a month.
If you saw my DH and I you would not assume we have money. Jeans and flannels are our winter outfits. Summer jeans and Ts. Cars are 2010 and 2013. House is a development 63yr old home. We just ooz rich.😁
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of Course dear old dad is copacetic about it. I sure would be if I ran out of money and got some private apartment plus care aides. You went down there I assume to provide labor.
Today the mil called so from a pet store to jump her battery. Turns out that she was there with brothers wife leaving no one to filsit. Fil broke his pelvis a couple of weeks ago and apparently they left him after he promised to not go to the bathroom. We can’t talk to the brothers wife as the paid employee that she is, and frankly it’s better that she is that than a family volunteer doing all these hours. It’s sometimes impossible to negotiate with family rather than employees.
The bottom line, down the road it might well be that you are called upon to help more, and if the poa believes an al is best then he is in fact poa. If you want to stay and help out that’s going to take cooperation with the bro.
You say your brother's wife is a millionaire. Why on God's green earth would she or your brother be trying to 'sniff out' YOUR finances when they themselves could likely buy & sell you? They probably know what you do for a living which gives them a rough idea of how much money you make. Unless you are the CEO of IBM or something, they know you probably aren't worth what Elon Musk is worth. Right?
Have an honest, down to earth, REAL conversation with these people. Tell them how much you can afford to chip in for dad's care every month. Even if it's only $50.
"Conduct" yourself in a way that's honest and conducive to how you see yourself as a person: if you see yourself as having integrity and character, then conduct yourself accordingly. Just b/c you think someone is trying to sniff out your personal info, doesn't mean YOU have to stoop to THEIR level!
There's no point in talking with them about the service provider. My brother has one thing in mind: Me paying for it. Anything I say will be dismissed in knee-jerk fashion.
Have conversations and never reference your finances, and you won't have anyone sniffing around about your money situation. If someone asks a more pointed question, you can always respond with a wide-eyed look of incredulity and say, "Why on earth would you ask about my personal business?"
Oftentimes, meeting such probing questions head-on will put a stop to them.
Be vague answering 'sniffs' or hints.
Some nosey people throw out 'fishing hooks' just to see what they can catch for their gossip. A good response for a direct question is "Why do you want to know?"
Only give out what you are happy to share.
As to paying for a parents care the parent is responsible to pay for said care and if anyone is asking about your parents financial standing see above...😉
If parent can not afford to pay for needed care you can do what you can to help them apply for services that they may be entitled to.
But any information about any finances is to be shared only with people that have a need to know.
If you are POA it is your duty, responsibility to keep confidential information confidential.
As to your hypothetical question I see the conversation like this....
"Would you ever want to go"? and they wait for an answer..
your answer is ..
"Sure I would love to go" or "nope, not a place I would want to go, there are other places I would rather go first" End of discussion. no need to elaborate
(just kidding)
let me see...
my answer...
money is a strange thing.
...some people "work"...and are paid very well...but the "work" they do is morally a crime.
...some people work...and are paid nothing...but the work is truly noble.
regarding people who like to "sniff out" things, it tends to be not just about money.
...apparently, the 2 things people are most interested in, is:
1. how much money do you make?
2. who are you having s*x with?
(i’m a lawyer by the way)
;) i guess everyone on this website would be flying to hawai’i every day (lots of accumulated virtue wealth/currency.)
aloha :)