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My mom lives with us. She pays $600 for an apartment at the back of our garage. It has a bathroom. She also has a kitchenette set up in the garage. Her meals are eaten with us and we drive her wherever she needs to go. She buys her “junk” food as I refuse to do so. She does virtually no housework, but washes every article of clothing within reach. Every month I get the sob story that she is broke and how is she gonna pay her bills? I hold firm as$600 is a bargain for what she gets.
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Yes.....1100 is a fair and Square amount and will Leave MORE TO BE DESIRED Left for them.
talk Turkey NOW.
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I feel your pain. My mother was terribly abusive to us kids when we were growing up. (I am the youngest of 3. I am 72, sister is 73, brother is 75). After my dad died, she did not want to be alone--she lived far away in a different state--and asked each of us if she could move near to us. No one wanted her near them, but as a dutiful daughter, I agreed, and looked for places near me. At that point she only needed AL. I went to see her everyday, as it was only a 15 minute drive. She was so mean and nastly that place kicked her out and I had to find a new ALF. Did that, it was more $$ but not far away from me--15 min in the other direction. Neither of my sibs wanted to be involved in any part of her life, they never called to see how she was or sent a card, even on Mother's Day. But she made my brother in control of her $$, which was quite a bit. She was mean and nasty at the new place too, but her condition deteriorated and she had to move out anyway, so i moved her in with me and my husband. However, she did pay us $400 a month--this was in the '80's. But the stress of living under the same roof with her again was incalculable. (I have PTSD from my abusive childhood, but to be fair it was snot just her--my dad was abusive too.) At this point, my brother stole all of her $$ from the sale of her house. She pitched a fit, of course, and I helped her find an attorney. and we were able to get the money back but only in a trust account that could be used for her expenses, but my brother controlled the payouts. His reasoning was that he did not want her giving me any more $$. (My husband and I were and always had been very low income and struggled to meet expenses. Our house was not paid for and was costing us 57% of our meager SSS income each month. We were both disabled. Eventually her condition deteriorated further and she had to go to a NH. She had insurance to cover this expense. It was not a far drive and I went to see her every other day. The ONLY thing my sibs did was to accuse me of stealing her $$, which I never did and had no interest in doing. The had no interest in her care or well-being, and both lived far away in other states. My sister made a 9 hour drive to ccome and see my mom, but she spent the whole two days going thru my mom's files and paperwork trying to see when and how I was stealing her $$, which I was not doing. My mother changed her will and left them ZIP NADA, and left it all to me, and asked me not to tell them when she died. I never confronted her about how nasty she was to us, I just forgave her and let it be--she did the best she could. I honored her wishes and did not tell them she died for about 5 years, then I finally figured they had a right to know, and I told them--I wrote each of them a letter. Neither one of them asked about their share of her estate, and neither one of them has spoken to me in over 20 years. I am sad about that because we were very close growing up as we banded together in the face of her brutality. I am glad I got to take care of her in her final years and glad I was able to forgive her even though she never changed. At least I can look myself in the mirror every day and not feel guilty.
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cherokeegrrl54 Apr 2019
Im sorry you had to endure abusive parents and all the crap with your siblings...you did what you felt was right for you, and your mom, so you are strong and should have zero regret!!! Blessings to you for a happy and peaceful rest of your life 💖
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Robin, you stated they didn’t plan and now you’re paying the price. You are paying the price because you are allowing it to happen. You do have a choice and you also have the power..mom doesn’t. You tell her the truth. That this arrangement is no longer manageable for you and your husband financially or emotionally. That you need to think of your retirement. You are now in the role of the parent basically and she’s needs to leave the cozy nest you’ve given her. Back up your feelings with a voice and action and stick to it. As you said it’s not your fault they didn’t plan well.
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I’ll give you the accountants’ answer, which might be helpful in your arguments. Your parents are wanting a ‘marginal cost’ rent. That is for the ‘margin’ or extra cost to you, over and above what your costs would be anyway. You want a full ‘share’ cost – all the costs divided by the number of people. This costing argument comes up in business all the time. The Sales Manager wants to sell just a bit more at less than the normal price, because you can squeeze it out of the machines and a bit of extra profit will be good. The Factory Manager doesn’t want the hassle of building more units at less than total cost, and says it will undercut the normal price and annoy the customers who are paying full price.

You might want to look at a compromise. ‘Marginal cost’ (just the extra power bills etc) is not a good idea – all that extra stress for nothing. Full ‘share’ cost seems a lot to them, mostly because they are still meeting fixed costs for their own house. They are probably pointing out that if they decide to leave, you will be out of pocket because you still have to pay the fixed costs without getting their share. However they are getting very little value from their own house – something like having their cake and eating it too. You can reasonably say that if they want to ‘waste’ money on an extra house, that is their problem and they should pay for it themselves.

The other complicating factor is the care services you are providing. You haven’t given any details, but you need to put a figure on them separate from rent. Cooking? Shopping? Laundry? Transport? See if you can break down the local AL charge between apartment rent and service charge. That gets added onto your compromise rent.

This is a bargaining situation. You need to work out what charge will make it worthwhile putting up with the stress. They need to work out whether they are willing to pay the charge you want. Good luck!
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Sicilianlady,I am quoting you here.

I've met very well to do women who are systematically giving their own children in their 50's the allowable annual gift exclusion so that these well to do women and their husbands will be able to give the ownership of their expensive homes and vacation condos to their children and let the poor American taxpayers get stuck with the bill. The children don't need the help; they have wonderful educations and plenty of money and I think Medicaid should be for really poor people. My husband and I sacrifice to pay our long term care insurance each month so that we won't be a burden on our fellow citizens.  

My mom is 93. Alzheimer's. She is still private pay.but will need to go on Medicaid at some point. Do I think there are people who game this, wealthy ones who gift and obscure assets? Sure. Do you know the stats of how much Medicaid pays for long term care of elders nationally? I don't know you meant to condemn us all for when we have to,make that most unpleasant journey.
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SicilianLady1 Apr 2019
My dear Segoline,
If you will reread my post,
Of course, I did not mean to condemn " 'us all' for when we have to make that most unpleasant journey". Do you want a $ figure breaking down how much each state in the union pays for elders nationally?  I don't have it, do you?  And how is that relevant to anything?  I know that my State is one of the 3 poorest states in the country. I know how little there is available for Medicaid. Do you think that I am not part of the "us all" of which you speak? Do you think that I have not had to make the same "journey"  of which you speak? I had to make it 3 separate times with a grandmother with dementia and 2 parents, all of whom lived into their 90's. I have "been there, done that" (what you are only anticipating  but have not yet had to go through). I started taking care of my grandmother when I was 35 years old. My mother was not emotionally strong enough to take care of her own mother (my grandmother) or my father,  But I am in a unique situation in that in the last 15 years, I have been in 3 separate church groups which sing at retirement/AL, Long Term Care and Skilled Living facilities weekly, 10 months out of the year.  (My own grandmother was in Skilled Living for 9 years until her death). I spent every penny of her assets to keep her in a nice facility which did not accept Medicaid. She made the money and I thought her money should be spent on her. She was "spent out" one year before her death at which time I moved her to a Medicaid facility. 

 I heard the rich women of whom I speak say about one of the facilities where we sang "this place is so expensive to live in;  who could live more than a couple of months (at $5,000.00) a month"? These same women spoke of their condos in Florida and their 6,000 sq. ft. houses in one of the 3 most affluent cities in our state. Do I think that what they say that they are doing is dishonorable?  Yes I do and I stand by my statement. They are systematically giving away to their children what they should be saving for their own retirement and we taxpayers will have to pay for them (and their husbands) to be taken care of when it should be her own (now even wealthier) children. My husband and I also took care of my MIL and basically ruined our retirement plans because we felt that we had to "make up to her" for the verbal abuse she received from my FIL. She didn't meet  Medicaid guidelines for ADL's until 2 weeks before her death. Her only income was her deceased husband's SS check. So we heavily subsidized her stay at a nice facility.  My husband and I bought  Long term care insurance 10 years ago.  If you will read my posts, I  told "Maggi Mai" (who said that she wouldn't dare ask her own FIL for money) that perhaps her FIL had been helping her and her husband for years. "Maggi Mai" said that she didn't think that Robin 316 should ask her mother (who apparently had been  a "bi**h" to Robin 316 all of her life) to pay $1,100 a month for both of Robin's parents to live in Robin's and her husband's house. Perhaps Maggi Mai and her husband don't need the money. Perhaps her husband doesn't have to deliver pizzas part time as Robin's husband has to do to make ends meet. I told Maggi Mai that she did not have the right to tell Robin 316 how much $ Robin316 should ask Robin's parents to pay to stay in Robin and her husband's house and that Maggi Mai was the only poster who thought it was her business to tell this poor desperate Robin 316 that she should not ask for so much. 
I respectfully tell you "Welcome to my World".  I regret that I have probably forgotten more than you will ever experience about eldercare, private pay, Medicaid, hiring sisters, etc.  Have you ever had siblings who think that the money you spent on your grandmother and parents (which your grandmother and parents earned) should not have been on them because your siblings believe that it should have been part of their inheritance?  Hope you never have to experience any of this.
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Robin316, Your parents (especially your mother) need a "reality wake up ". Take your mother to several nice AL facilities and let her see how much it costs to live there. Your mother may think that it is still the 1950's and she can get a loaf of bread for 5 cents Let the Administrator write down on paper how much it costs. I imagine that your parents now have full run of your house. Let your parents see how little they would get for $2,500 a month.

Now, some of the posters whom I'm sure are trying to be helpful are not. One said that Robin316 "should be asking $550.00 (total for both parents) instead of $1,100 a month because (her quote) "as you said so yourself, each person costs $561.00 per month".  Is this some sort of "new math" where $561.00 a month X 2 = $550.00 a month total?
Let the parents stay in their own home and let them get outside help.  They're so old already (89 and 91), it will allow them to legitimately spend down any assets they have and by the time they need to live in a NH, they will probably qualify for Medicaid.
I've met very well to do women who are systematically giving their own children in their 50's the allowable annual gift exclusion so that these well to do women and their husbands will be able to give the ownership of their expensive homes and vacation condos to their children and let the poor American taxpayers get stuck with the bill.  The children don't need the help; they have wonderful educations and plenty of money and I think Medicaid should be for really poor people.  My husband and I sacrifice to pay our long term care insurance each month so that we won't be a burden on our fellow citizens.  

One poster says that she "thinks $1,000 a month is A LITTLE STEEP" I would question if Mom and Dad are even paying property taxes.  They would automatically get a homestead exemption and a further discount if they are disabled or over 65. I went to an auction last year of an 18,000 sq. ft. mansion. Both the tax assessor and the tax collector told me that the annual taxes were $26,000 but since the homeowners had less than $12,000 yearly income, they paid nothing. The electric bill for this house on a lake with tennis court and pool would have been more than $12,000 a year.

This poster obviously has never had to take care of 2 apparently ungrateful parents who in reality should be glad to pay their daughter and son in law for the loss of privacy and the strain on their marriage. If they are going to live permanently with these 2 nice people, I think that they should sell their house and give the money over a 5 year Medicaid look back period to them. If I understand correctly, Robin316 is an only child and would inherit the estate anyway. I feel sorry for Robin 316 and her husband and until the other posters have an exact situation like hers, they belittle her by telling her that she should charge her parents less.  It is none of their of their business.
In the final analysis, it is nobody's business except that of Robin316's and her husband's.
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Show them the options. They can live with you and share expenses or go to AL . They can sell the house . My mom sold her house and moved in with me . not ideal but she pays for her expenses and I provide the house and transportation to DR and hospital when needed. A studio is $4000 a month and an additional $500 a month if they received med reminders and ADL services. She appreciates being here and I do my best while working two jobs. Make the decision now before they need more care.
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Tell your mother you will not be able to have either of them in your home since you cannot afford the bills, etc. Help them find an assisted living apartment close by. If your mother refuses to sell the house even then, that will be upto her. Send your Dad back to live at the house.

Accept the burden of the new bathroom, rent the basement out for a year to recoup your expenses. You can only be a good daughter for so long without it affecting your own health. It seems like your Mum is used to getting what she wants when she wants it. But you have your own life and family to think of and put first at this point. You can still be a good daughter from afar.
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First of all, I made a mistake when I first created my profile. I am 59 years. My father is 91 (almost 92) and my mother is 86. I would like to answer the question of why father has lived with us for 4 1/2 years and my mother just started living with us. Four and a half years ago, my dad had a knee replacement. Following the surgery he was in rehab for a month. Three days before he was scheduled to be released, my mother told me that she was having cataract surgery and he could not come home for six weeks. I had 72 hours to get our house handicapped accessible. Then she decided to have the other eye done before the year ran out, as long as she had met her deductible. That was another six week recovery. When the twelve weeks was over, she told me she liked living alone and I should keep my father at our house permanently. My parents have never gotten along so it was probably the best thing for my dad. My husband was working at the time and money was OK so I did not ask for any kind of reimbursement. We bought all his groceries, over the counter meds, treats like ice cream, going out to eat, etc. A couple of years later, my husband lost his job and was forced to retire. He began collecting SS at a reduced rate, since he was only 64. It was at that point that I started using my dad's debit card to purchase items that only he consumed. A year later, I asked my mother to please give us something to reimburse us for him living with us. She would only agree to $100 per month. I figured something was better than nothing.

Then she began to pressure us to let her move in. She said they would sell their house, we would combine households and they would give us a lot more money. We really did not want to do this as no one in the family (especially me) gets along with her. But, in a moment of feeling sorry for her, we gave in. We got several bids and eventually contacted a construction company and began having a bathroom installed in our basement. The plan was to make a living area/bedroom for her in the basement with a nice ADA compliant bathroom. In the middle of the construction she changed her mind and said she did not want to live with us. We were stuck finishing a bathroom that we did not need or want. My husband was insistent that she pay for it which she was extremely unhappy about. She pulled money out of a retirement account to pay us back. Now, she keeps throwing the fact that she paid for this bathroom and increased the value of our house. Even though I remind her that she wanted it and she changed her mind in the middle of the construction, she will not stop talking about it. That is the reason she won't give us any more money. But I figured out how much money they owe us at $500/month for the past 4 1/2 years for my dad and $500/month for the past 14 months for my mother and deducted the cost of the bathroom from it. The bottom line is they owe us over $10,000 which I am not asking for. I just want $1100/month from this point on. I would even settle for $800. I do not think this is unreasonable since they have disrupted our lives totally. They did not adequately plan for their retirement and we are paying the price. We are both angry and resentful. They will not move out and they will not fork over any more money. There are no other family members other than our two adult children. They are also both angry and resentful at the problems they have caused us. I'm trying to be a good daughter, but at what price? The stress of living with my mother is horrible. Then having the financial stress just puts me over the top.
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Harpcat Apr 2019
Robin, you stated they didn’t plan and now you’re paying the price. You are paying the price because you are allowing it to happen. You do have a choice and you also have the power..mom doesn’t. You tell her the truth. That this arrangement is no longer manageable for you and your husband financially or emotionally. That you need to think of your retirement. You are now in the role of the parent basically and she’s needs to leave the cozy nest you’ve given her. Back up your feelings with a voice and action and stick to it. As you said it’s not your fault they didn’t plan well.
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No. But I'd only be asking them for $550 instead of $1100 a month as you said so yourself, each person costs $561.50 per mth. Show them the expenses you pay and tell them that you cannot afford to cover them at only $200 a month. Expecially since it appears their income out earns yours.
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My mom lives with hubs and I, and she and dad moved in about 5 years ago when she got ill and his ALZ got to be too much to handle. Dad passed after about a year and half, with some home care on the days Hubs and I worked so Mom was not overwhelmed. She is still with us, and we have a sort of flexible situation. She pays the electric and Dish TV bills as they went up when they moved in, and gives us grocery money and gas money fairly often, as we drive her everywhere. She also often askes if "we need any money",, we say no.. but she has helped out with some home repairs. She will likely never be in a position to need aid, for which we are lucky.So I would say she gives us about 800 to 1000 a month. And dads month at MC was 6500,, so she knows she is getting off cheap! Plus we take her on vacations ( with our Aunt as well)This works out well for us at this time. I agree you need more than 200 a month!
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In your profile, you write that you are caring for your parents. Your 59-year-old mother with "age related decline." ? Could you elaborate?

YES, your parents should pay you more. And what happens as they get older and you and your H need to do even more caregiving? Is your mother still going to expect the same deal she and your father get now?
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I think your calculations are spot on. They are enjoying the use of a very expensive asset and should pay their share of the taxes and maintenance of it, not just the 'consumables' like water and electric.

And that doesn't even touch on the free labor you are undoubtedly providing.

Have them figure out what it would cost to go back and live in their own home and hire help from an agency to come in and do what they need.

It's your house. It's your choice if you want to make a gift of your time and your space. Decide what you would like to have happen, (do you want them to pay more? if so, definitely get this in a legal agreement! do you want them to move out?) then call a family meeting and make a plan.

After all... you could just put your house up for sale and MOVE. Then what would they do?
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TaylorUK Apr 2019
In the UK you wouldn't be able to sell your own house which by caring for a relative creates a problem of its own. What is clear from answers on here is that this trying to be dutiful is NOT a successful way of dealing with elderly people in need of some support but not needing to be in care full time.
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I think your calculations were right if you are dividing by 4 people, DH, you, and two parents.

If you go this way, you need to draw up a rent agreement. Have it signed and notarized. This is in case Medicaid is needed. They will look at that money as a gift and penalize the parent needing care. If Mom sells the house, that money can only be used for her and Dad. Same reason, Medicaid will look at anything else as a gift.
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Robin, I can understand you wanting your parents to pay more for living in your house. Please note that you would still be paying for property taxes, mortgage [if there is one], and homeowner's insurance whether your parents were there or not.

Now, when it comes to the water bill, electric and gas bill, plus groceries, your parents should pay their fair share. Probably 50% of the cost.

I see your Mom is only 59 years old per your profile, that is quite young to be needing to with a grown child, yet still hang onto a house that she goes to daily. She must really miss that home.

Just curious, why are your parents living with you?
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Why did you care for Dad and Mom got to stay in her house? And why now does she live with you and go back to her house? I think its time for Mom to sell the house and Move her and Dad into an AL. Your husband should be enjoying his retirement not taking care of in-laws.

Yes, parents should be paying something but Mom is still paying taxes and upkeep on her house. So I think 1000 is a little steep. Actually, Mom got away cheap at 100 a month.
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