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My brother was doing this to my mother. I don't think she knew the difference between $20 and $800 at that point. I took her to her bank. Closed her account. Then I took her to my bank, opened a new account in her name but I was the signer. From then on I paid all of her bills. It worked like a charm and I was able to keep her in her home until 2 weeks before she died at 90. If your mom is lucid, explain that this is the only way she can keep her home. I think as they get older, they loose the ability to say no. It might be a relief to your mother to be taken out of that spot!
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1RareFind: You're right on point. Kudos!
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OK, let's get one thing straight here:

Taking advantage of elders is very common, and what's described here is exactly what's going on. When someone is on the verge of homelessness because of someone else taking advantage of them, this is definitely an extreme case where intervention is absolutely necessary, and a representative payee would definitely be very helpful in this particular type of matter. Look at the situation again. If they don't ever is coming up short by $1000 every month, this should tell you that something is definitely very wrong, especially if the elder is on the verge of homelessness, hello!Yes, something definitely needs to be done about this because there is definitely a huge problem if the elder can no longer afford her home and she's struggling. The Op explained the situation that someone is taking financial advantage of the elder, and others on this thread have expressed their own experience with this very same kind of problem due to their experience and observations.

Let's get another thing straight:

Narcissist is more than just a psychological term. Those who don't know about how narcissistic operate really need to do their homework because narcissist really do take advantage of others out of selfish greed, I personally new one. It doesn't matter whether or not the OP responds, maybe the person is busy trying to take care of matters regarding this situation. Remember this is a family problem. We don't know the situation of the OP, we shouldn't judge because we don't know the whole situation which is true
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You guys really need to get realistic. The op hasn't responded at all and other than the issue with the granddaughter, has given no evidence that would make most of your suggestions viable. The best response was the family mediation. Get a rep payee? That's for really extreme cases. Saying the mom can't afford the house is likely an exaggeration or fear, she doesn't say anything that's actually happening. Plus she calls her kid a narcissist which is a psychiatric term and not just a word to throw around. 75% of you are giving horrible advice and not reading between the lines... if the op is the primary caregiver then how is she not being allowed to talk to the mother? That doesn't make sense. She's not telling the full story and that's why the family mediation is the best choice. Why aren't the other siblings concerned about the house or money? You really need to use your critical thinking skills more.
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There are systems out there that help with elder monitoring, you may very well want to look into these systems. These ideas will get you started in bringing this very sad situation to a happy ending because it is possible to stop her. Another thing you're going to have to do is to stand up to this leach and don't give an inch of ground. Stand up very firm and firmly stand your ground, especially since this leach happens to be your own daughter. Sometimes true love must get tough, and you're going to have to show your daughter some very tough love in order to stop her from living off of your mom.
What you may end up wanting to do if she happens to work is call her boss and tell her boss what she's doing. Explain that the employee is taking advantage of an elderly person and not using their own wages to support themselves. The boss will call her into the office and have a talk with her and it would help if you were there as well because you can be there to explain everything you've seen. It would also help to take along any witnesses. I'm not sure any boss would keep an employee who would stoop that low, especially if this employee happens to handle money. I can tell you that no reputable company will want a dishonest employee (if this person happens to be working). Again, it is very possible to stop an enabler, don't let anyone tell you it's not because it's very possible if proper steps are taken.
Now if the daughter happens to be on Social Security herself, you can report her to Social Security because she's taking money from another recipient but she's not entitled to, and she can get in big trouble for what she's doing from your description. This would go under the category of gaining unreported income, and they can cut her benefits or even stop them. Depending on the severity of the situation, she can even be banned from receiving public assistance depending on the discretion of the government. If the elder is getting federal benefits and most likely she is, federal benefits is something to not mess with because the government will definitely crack down hard on anyone taking benefits they are not entitled to. This can land people in jail for a very long time. That kind of record can haunt people for the rest of their lives for messing with the government's money. Knowing something and not reporting it makes people just as bad as the one committing the crime. It's up to the citizens to report suspicious activity and even step into intervene and stop it if necessary.
If it happens to be that this person is not entitled to benefits and she's not working, it's time to tell her to get a job and it's time to intervene and put a stop to her leeching off of the elderly person because the elderly person cannot afford to be supporting someone else, especially if she's not yet on Medicaid and will need to apply for it. I don't know all the rules of Medicaid for myself, I've been on it since childhood when I was rescued from an abusive home.
Another thing that would help is probably putting the elder's extra money into a trust so that the leech cannot access a dime of it. Taking steps to dry up the leech's money source and push her out of the nest and force her to take responsibility (unless she happens to find another victim).
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If the enabler happens to be incompetent, stopping them is absolutely 100% possible if someone takes guardianship of them because guardianship gives the Guardian power over all areas of a persons life. Stopping an enabler it is very possible. Even POA or call Social Security to request a representative payee to take over the finances and manage them will definitely stop the enablement. In fact, I currently know someone who has a representative payee who manages her money because without one she would definitely spend herself broke! Representative payees manage money for those with poor money management skills. What my friend is experiencing with her payee is when the payee gives her very small amounts of money throughout the month. The payee uses what's needed out of her money to pay her most important bills each month. That way, her bills are guaranteed to be paid. You may look into a representative payee or become one yourself but do your research whether you become her POA or a representative payee to act on her behalf. If she's getting Social Security, you'll definitely want to alert them that there's a problem and the recipient is on the verge of becoming homeless. All you have to explain is just what you explained here.

* Explain that she's elderly and being financially abused or exploited and she's on the verge of facing homelessness because someone is either stealing her money or swindling/scamming her out of it.

If you have all of the information including her date of birth, as well as her name of course and definitely her Social Security number, address, and possibly banking information if she gets direct deposit. If you have all of the vital information on this person, definitely give Social Security a call right away, do it immediately.

Another thing that would help instead of a bank account alone would be to have her Social Security moved to a special card you can use at the ATMs or even at the checkout. Money can be taken off the card and put into the bank account for her bills while the rest stays on the card. If you make it a rule not to carry cash at all, it will be near impossible to get anything from any of you including the person being financially abused as you're describing. I think I mentioned this before but be very wary if this other person taking advantage of the elderly happens to be on her bank account as a joint owner. This is really not a good idea if this happens to be the case. You really don't want this elderly person losing her home especially if she's lived there a very long time. If she's been otherwise good with paying her bills, it's time to nip the problem in the bud. What you need to do is find out when this other person is showing up at the elder's home but this will take some private surveillance on your part. As soon as this person goes in the door, miraculously show up at the same moment she walks in the door or a few seconds after. Another thing you can do is if you're helping this elder at all is to call the phone provider when she's out on an outing and change her phone number through her provider. You can do this if you happen to gain any type of position where you're helping her with her bills. You'll definitely need a few pieces of vital information including the account number, phone number, and her pin number if the provider requires her to provide one for her account. Accounts are sometimes given pin numbers. For instance, if the phone happens to be through frontier, each account has a pin number. Getting a hold of that will definitely give you the power to have the number changed so the leech who may also be calling her won't be able to communicate with her by phone. The only way she could communicate with her is either by email which you can have disabled or deactivated, or by just coming over. When she comes over, you can be waiting somewhere around the corner but somewhere you can watch the elder's home. Another thing you can do is to hire a neighbor and explain what's going on if they don't already know. Explain to a nearby neighbor the situation and give all the details about the leech and the situation. Hire that neighbor to watch the elders home especially if the neighbor happens to live right across the street. Have them contact you right away or see if they'll show up as soon as this leech comes over to the elders home. You can also give APS a call and make a report. Make a report each and every time the leech shows up at the elders home. If possible, try to get video and audio surveillance inside the elder's home. It's possible to be able to watch inside the home if you have the right hardware and software. It's kind of call the nanny cam to some degree. This can help if the elder is also prone to falling. If you can catch video and record suspicious activity in any of the rooms of the elder's home, you can turn that into not only police, but also the APS. There are systems out there that help with elder monitoring, you may very well want
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Stopping an enabler who has been enabling for such a long time would be almost impossible, in my opinion. If we get back to the issue of the fact that the poster's mom can no longer afford living in her own house, how can we help with that? Can she afford assisted or independent living? Minnesota25, are there any low-income senior housing complexes near? You might want to start looking around. Also, if your mom is truly $1000 behind each month, how much money does she have left and what would her monthly income be if all of her savings were gone? Does she have any emergency funds--say if the furnace were to go out or the roof were to start leaking? Please keep us posted--what happens to our parents when they are out of money is an issue I would like to know more about. Thanks!
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This scenario happened with my sisters in-laws. Two Brothers in Law mooching off elderly uncle - $1000 for tires, $3000 for mortage, it was something every month. Guess what - when uncle needed and applied for Medicaid - he had a huge penalty period. And of course Brothers in Law were no where to be seen. No money. So uncle had to live with the loser father of these two BIL. Awful situation.
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Churchmouse, we weren't able to deal with it in any useful way really. My in-laws went through all their considerable money enabling grandson. We always thought it was my MIL who wouldn't say no to grandson but after her death in 2013 it became clear who the real culprit was-grandpa! He would complain about being short of money and grandson but refused to actually take any steps to stop it and would go behind our backs to keep the handouts going. Those two were the perfect storm.
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minnesota25: Your mother is an enabler. THIS MUST CEASE NOW! Good grief, your mother is going to lose her house over enabling her granddaughter? That tells me that your mother's mind is going downhill.
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As an RN and attorney who deals with elder law matters daily I suggest family mediation. You, your daughter, and a trained and experienced mediator may be able to reach an agreement, which should be put in writing. If it is drafted by a knowledgeable lawyer-mediator it is enforceable as a contract. Trying to use the law with a "willing victim" doesn't always work so well. They tell authorities everything is fine. Search eldercare mediators in your state for referrals to competent mediators. Otherwise, you need to let your mother know that she will likely lose her home if nothing changes.
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Call Adult Protection
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sounds like my parents, especially my mom, with my son; do I feel responsible? maybe, only in the sense of having him and me and his dad divorcing and yes, especially now that mom's being proven right and all the resiliency stuff's being said to be wrong, that he really was traumatized by it, ok, I get it, but does that justify her enabling and co-dependency on him which, yes, I do believe she was, ruined her but I did step in and take care of her, tried all the above tricks but as has been said, since she was never deemed incompetent nothing I could do; didn't work so well with dad after she passed though he tried hard but dad put him in a position of moving in with him to take care of him; now he did get a VA benefit to pay him, so that helped somewhat but he kept trying to get him to sign his houses over to him but he wouldn't ever do it and I did get POA over dad's money with POD so I got it when he passed which really upset him but he wound up with a girlfriend by that point who came into a bunch of money which tided him over for a while but
what I'm wondering is how is mom funding her $1000 shortfall every month; does she have money to cover it or is she in debt? that sounds like my husband, who I admit I was wondering about - turned out he'd gotten 7 credit cards he just kept playing with till it all fell apart and we're now under a debt management plan; that was to deal with son #2 on my part (son #1 is mine only) - new husband - who grew up with this so both had hard time learning as teen-agers - youngest has done somewhat better, wanting to do on his own when he truly can't yet - anyway #2's is a bind and pretty sure all credit cards are cut off so he can't look to dad anymore but like was said about knowing how much you have he has somewhat idea of how much got from dad but don't plan to go into that for covering his usual and normal expenses he's gotten behind on even though I know why
wonder if this daughter works?
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If the grandmother is legally competent, she can continue to bankrupt herself any way she pleases. If she has no sign of dementia of any kind, all you can do is step back and try not to watch. Stop handling mom's bills and tell her why you are letting go. Her choice not yours. Not your circus, not your monkeys.
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The daughter is 30 years old, and has her mother take care of her car insurance, traffic tickets, and a bunch of other stuff? I have just a few words for the 30 year old daughter - GROW UP AND ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY! This Is something she should have learned to do as a teenager.
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A power of attorney alone would not prevent your mom from making gifts to her granddaughter. A power of attorney does not transfer authority to someone else, it only gives authority to someone else to manage things for the principal. The only way to really prevent mom from undue influence is by establishing an irrevocable trust. A revocable trust may help, but an unscrupulous person can always try to get someone to sign a new trust or try to revoke or amend a revocable trust. With an irrevocable trust your mom will be protected. Properly planned and drafted, an irrevocable trust may help your mom qualify for Veterans Benefits or Medicaid. The rules very from state to state and the tax consequences can be significant so this is not something you want to do without the benefit of an Elder Law Attorney licensed in your state.
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Many of you are acting like the daughter can just go take control of bank accounts and affairs because she thinks that her daughter is abusive. It's not that easy and furthermore, doing so can also be viewed as abusive by the state if the mother doesn't want it. The law is the law and until she has authority to do it, she can't open bank accounts or keep her mom's money for what she sees fit. The fact is that we don't know the dynamics of the family and how/why the granddaughter is enabled by the grandma. Maybe she considers her a daughter, maybe the op and her daughter have lifetime issues. Who knows? But to advise her to take control or open accounts or force repayment, etc is not good advice and can be illegal. She hasn't mentioned anything other than the money to imply that her mom is making bad decisions but bad decisions is not incompetence or we'd have all been in trouble once or twice. The person who said that the op might be in trouble for allowing it- how? It's not her business unless the granddaughter is threatening or bullying the grandma for the money.
When you say she can't afford her house, do you have evidence of this or do you fear that? I'm guessing that her home should be paid off and she is responsible for the taxes, utilities and maintenance.
Where are the other family members? Is there anyone who can talk to your mom who she would listen to? If not, consulting an attorney or removing yourself are the only options. Maybe your mom enjoys the codependent relationship? Some people do like to baby others. If she wants to die penniless, it's her right.
I personally feel like there is an undisclosed dynamic between the 3 of you which you're not mentioning that is the root of the issue.
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Your daughter is not self-supporting. If she is living with you and taking money from your mother, this is really sad. I would pay no attention to what she has "ruled". You need to push her out of the nest to help her learn to fly. She should not be in charge of this situation.
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There must surely be a happy mean somewhere between dictating - which I agree she shouldn't do whether or not she can - and empty hand-wringing, no? The OP is her mother's main carer. She is not a helpless lackey. And her daughter is not exempt from legislation protecting vulnerable adults - it exists.

If the OP continues to provide an increasing level of care without attempting to resolve this abuse, who's the enabler then?

But BnnK54 can you tell us - how did you deal? That would be seriously useful to hear about.
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Everyone seems to think that the Mother can dictate to her adult daughter and set up rules to be followed. I can guarantee they have not lived this scenario. The granddaughter is a narcissist and, the grandmother a co-dependent enabler. And for those of you blaming the mother for the daughter’s behavior-you need to rethink that. The mother’s not the one enabling and adult; the grandmother is. The daughter no doubt stays away from her mother. The granddaughter learned a long time ago that her grandmother can’t/won’t say no to her and; that’s her ticket to exploit her. The grandmother may think she’s helping her granddaughter out of love but, it’s actually co-dependency. If the grandmother actually loved the granddaughter she’s let her grow up and learn to manage her own life. I’m speaking from firsthand experience. It’s particularly scaring if the grandmother might need Medicaid in the future. The mother can talk to the daughter and granddaughter until she is blue in the face and, it won’t make one bit of difference.
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Anyway, even if they have money in savings, this should not necessarily be a license to spend it on anyone because they don't know when they themselves may need that money until it's too late because it's already gone.
Not everyone who takes advantage of elders is necessarily a narcissist, but narcissists are notorious for draining people financially dry by squeezing out of their victims every cent they can possibly get.

*Special tip

If a narcissist knows how much money someone has, they'll stop at nothing to get every dime. If they know how much money you have, believe me when I say they'll stop at nothing to get it all. This happened with a friend of mine who happens to be this man's girlfriend. He took financial advantage of her and no one knew what was really going on until he was finally evicted from her home because she threw him out. That's when all the hidden truth came out and all was revealed. The narcissist would even put the joint bank account in the negative just for a pack of smokes at the end of the month. He always watched the online banking to see when the checks would route because they got direct deposit. He would stay up all night until the money showed on the online banking page, he told me himself what time the checks route. I'm sure he had sleepless nights when the checks didn't show up on that page at all until the bank opened at 9 AM. Narcissists are often money hungry from what I noticed and experienced.
The narcissist may not listen when you confront her, and there's no easy way to confront I narcissist or to talk any sense into them but to confront the problem. If someone doesn't stop the narcissist from draining this bank account, you're very right about the elder being rendered homeless and having nowhere to live but under a bridge in a cardboard box.

What I have to tell you is really going to hurt but sometimes the truth really hurts.
The narcissist in your life doesn't care about you or her victim. The narcissist only wants what they want, and they don't care who they hurt in the process of getting what they want or getting their way. The narcissist I once knew was also married to another woman. Something inside told me it wouldn't last a year and that something turned out to be right. I don't know what happened but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he was trying to financially drain his wife. It wasn't until much later than I heard he was trying to gain access to her bank account after the split. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he was taking advantage of her. Because he always spent himself broke on smokes, he didn't even have the money for a divorce. When his mom was gone, he lived off his girlfriend. This financially broke the bank as I described earlier, and to worsen matters even more, he was on her bank account. Please consider removing the narcissist off your mom's account in any way possible. You're smart enough to bring this sad situation to a happy ending
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OK, I know a thing or two about narcissists and I know for a fact from your description that the narcissist won't stop. At the time I knew this one particular man, I didn't know he was secretly taking advantage of his girlfriend and draining her bank account. Of course he took financial advantage of others by overcharging for things he sold and he normally didn't give anything away to those who needed it as far as I noticed. Trust me when I say this behavior won't stop because the narcissist is selfishly greedy. When they drain people financially, they don't think of the needs of that person and they're quick to move onto the next victim. They always have a back up somewhere and they may come in as nice and friendly to worm their way into the victim's life, only to take them down in some way or another.
Be very wary if this person's name happens to be on your mom's account, this will give her free reign to drain that bank account. You can stop this from happening by taking over your mom's financial affairs. What you can do is speak to the bank about suspected elder abuse and see if you can find a paper trail somewhere or some kind of digital records where the money went. You can take what's left of your mom's money and put it into a new bank account, but leave the old bank account empty if you can't take the other name off of it. One way to empty the bank account as a last resort if you can't transfer the money to a new account is to go to the ATM and withdraw all of it. You can even do this at the window of the walk up teller. Withdraw as much as you can from the ATM, and whatever the ATM won't give you (if you have to take it out in certain amounts) you can always go into a walk up teller and get the rest.
Next, see a personal banker either at that bank or another bank and open a new account and deposit the money. See if you can put your name on the account as POA. That way, you can monitor the account.
When you open the new account, tell the bank what you told us here, and explain the situation and tell them you suspect elder fraud or abuse. Tell them who it is, named them specifically and block them from accessing the new account.

How to prevent future fraud or abuse:

Hold onto the check books and the debit card. That way, the narcissist won't have any access to the bank account and cannot get the card or the checks away from the elder. You can also opt out of having any checks for the account since many places no longer accept personal checks. We really don't need checks anymore anyway when you have debit. Our bank actually came out with a new type of card with a microchip as an added layer of security. This is where are you must type in your pin number, and without that pin, you can't use the card in some places that require you to insert it into the slot as opposed to swiping it and running it as credit.

As mentioned here, you could also have your mom's competency level evaluated. If she's know if she's incompetent, someone will need to take guardianship of her take over all of her affairs so that no one can ever take advantage of her again.

What you should do now:

Have a family meeting about the problem. This should be done in a nonjudgmental way while confronting the issue. It would be a good idea to get the family in on watching over the elder. One thing you want to do is see if anyone else has also been taken advantage of financially. This is where you can help others who were also taken advantage of to put a stop to the enablement because this is exactly what's going on from your description. As long as she enables bad behavior it will continue until the purse strings are pulled tightly shut.

Now, someone needs to personally addressed the narcissist about paying her own way in this world. If she's going to park illegally, she's going to have to pay her own fines. If she's going to have a vehicle, she needs to stand on her own 2 feet and pay her own insurance and repairs. If she's going to drive around an old piece of junk that's always breaking down, she's going to have to pay for it herself. You mentioned the narcissist is 30 years old. That's plenty old enough to stand on one's own 2 feet and take responsibility. I can see grandma helping the granddaughter once in a while, but the granddaughter should never be a living off of grandma. There's an old saying about kids being spoiled because no one will spank grandma. This line is not meant to be taken literally because you don't want to literally spank her. The line is just meant as an awareness thing. I can understand is grandparents want to spoil the grandkids rotten like they may have spoiled their own kids when they were little. This grandkid is 30 years old, a grown adult who should've long since been independent enough to not even need help from her grandparents. The grandparents are most likely on a fixed income, and we don't know how much money they have in savings. Anyway, even if they have money in savings, this should n
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Time to bring in the cavalry. Can you arrange for a geriatric case manager to assess her situation, including whether she understands that if she gives money away it means she doesn't have it anymore to spend on supporting herself, whether she has sufficient capacity to manage her own money, and discuss what happens WHEN she runs out? Also, a family mediator who specializes in elder and mult-generational issues could help.
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Mm. Even if your daughter, at approaching 30, is an independent adult would you not feel some residual responsibility for her behaviour?

My children are all around that age. I don't pretend that I like everything they do, or every choice they make, of course not. But I can't imagine taking their exploitation of a grandparent lying down, if they were ever to do such a thing.

I'm not suggesting that the OP should prevent the granddaughter seeing the grandmother at all, and I agree that the older lady has a perfect right to see whom she pleases and to do as she pleases with her own money, assuming that she is competent. But the OP describes herself as her mother's main carer for five years. That must count for something. Not least, it implies the OP's gradual assumption of responsibility for her mother's welfare over a significant period of time. To suggest that she can safely sit back and say oh woe is me but what can I do... I don't think it's a good bet. I think she would be implicated in the financial abuse if she allows it to continue unchallenged.

So challenge it. Loudly.
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The OP can't force a repayment since she isn't the one who loaned the money. She also can't make POA decisions unless the mother is incompetent, she can get POA if the mother okays it but it's not enforceable until the mom is incompetent or incapacitated. If APS comes and the mother is aware of what is being spent on the granddaughter then there's nothing they can do. The only way they can do anything is if the granddaughter is taking money that she doesn't know about. However, there's no guarantee that your mom would acknowledge the unauthorized purchases in order to protect her. At this point it seems to be a family and moral issue. You can consult a lawyer but I suspect the same answer unless your mom is exhibiting other examples of incompetence. The state is reactive not proactive because taking away someone's rights is a big deal. Getting POA because you don't agree with spending habits isn't a good enough reason for POA unless the spending is causing her regular bills to be unpaid. I understand that you're trying to look out for her but if it's causing you stress, the best thing may be to try to minimize your involvement with it for your own peace of mind.
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Your only hope is to get your mother's POA and keep her from accessing her own money and, the only way you can do that is with your Mother's consent as long as she's competent. I could write a book about this very circumstance! Good luck.
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Sounds to me as if your Mother is trying to buy your daughters affection. She is using the money to get your daughter's attention and this probably causes your daughter to spend more time with your Mother.
If your Mother is competent, then all you can do is point this out to her. Try having a heart to heart talk with her and explain your fears for her financial future, emphasizing your concern and love for her. Let her know you are there for her and you can lighten her burden. Many Senior people do not like to make financial decisions and would like someone they can trust handle their affairs. Tell her you could work up a budget together, and she can see how much she has come in and how much going out, and how much she has to "throw away".
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To the people who are advising you to take control and freeze out the daughter, you can't do anything like that, either. Unless she has been ruled legally incompetent, she can do what she wants whether it's a good decision or not. It's no different than parents who enable kids or men who pay for women/vice versa. The social worker can't do anything unless she's incompetent, she's allowed to go bankrupt buying the granddaughter diamonds if she wants. I'm sorry but it's the truth. Being her caregiver doesn't mean that you have control over her decisions. If you are so bothered by it and she's not incompetent, I would look into seeing if you can get a disability trust for excess income and get her approved for Medicaid in home care in order to be free of being effected by the situation.
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You can call APS but unless your mom is legally incompetent there is nothing you can do. My mom and brother are doing the same thing to my grandma and my uncle and I called APS. The social worker said that being taken advantage of and being incompetent are 2 different things. As long as your mother says that she's fine with paying for your daughter then it's her business and that's that. However, it also means that your daughter can't dictate that you can't communicate with your mom, your mom would have to express that she doesn't want to talk to you. I would recommend assessing your mom's personality because I know that you are trying to be helpful but it could end up causing her more grief than you think. Good luck
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this is elder abuse, look it up. My sister did the same thing with my mother "borrowing" money. (then went onto my father after I became mom's payee)
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