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Dear Alva, et alia;

My eldest daughter has MY POA; my husband who is also her stepfather has POA for him as well, and I think for my ex and my ex's wife as well; it's because she is level-headed and has ALL of our best interests at heart. And in an situation like the one described, she would be ahead of the game, if you know what I mean.

Our OP does NOT appear to be ahead of the game.


In the situation described, it sounds as though the mom knows that her daugther has Mom's best interest's at heart and that there is some suspicion about dad. Which is why I suggest that the daughter get a lawyer for her mom, separarate for her mom.
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worriedinCali Aug 2020
It sounds like dads intention is to get his wife in to long term care. He’s working with an attorney.
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To Deanna, Alva and Glad:
This is certainly a tangled web. It very much hinges upon what "dad's" intentions are .

I so hope this turns out well for the Mom.
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FloridaDD Aug 2020
Agreed, but that DD has the POA makes me a little suspicous
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DO NOT BRING MOM HOME!! But since YOU have POA, YOU need to speak to an elder lawyer to help you untangle this mess. But DONT bring Mom HOME!! Speak to an elder lawyer. You have POA, not your DAD!!
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DO NOT PICK UP YOUR MOM. To my mind your father is placing your mother, and rightly so, and he is handling it as he should with legal help.
Here is what will happen with the SNF. They will threaten. They will ask for medicare or medicaid extension through Social Services, which they may get or may not get. Moot point because the cost will likely not be a lot more than private placement care.
Your father is doing the correct thing with the assets. This is what must be done now and it needs professional help. Your Mom is beyond what he can do in care and beyond what YOU can do in care. The SNF will say and do anything to THREATEN you and to get SOMEONE/ANYONE to get your mother. You simply say no one can now physically of mentally take on her care and she will require placement and they should get their Social Workers busy with that immediately. They will say "Impossible because of Covid". That is end of conversation. Your father is correct. Do not speak with them. And of course you CAN speak with your mother. They have no right to block your calls.
Let your father alone. This is hard enough for him to take care of this. Offer him your support and love. Unless you suspect there is some nefarious thing afoot here, this is exactly how it should work.
The SNF cannot do an unsafe discharge. The worst they can do is bill your dad and her, and if they don't pay ruin their credit. It is unlikely they NEED credit at this point. That is the ultimate worst. They can place her if they can find placement. That won't be easy.
As a nurse all my life that is my opinion. Wishing you luck. Sorry for all the pain and confusion. Leave this to Dad and the Lawyer. Covid will make it all worse.Sorry; can't be helped.
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BarbBrooklyn Aug 2020
Alva, given your long experience with the system, I am loathe to disagree with you. But the thing is, the OP's mom appointed HER POA and not her husband. Unless the dad is being totally transparent with her, there is a clear conflict of interest.

I get that the dad is totally stressed; per the OP's profile, the mom has dementia (in addition to the physical issues that were presented). I totally get why and how the dad may need to step away from caregiving. But the OP has an obligation to make sure that her mom's best interersts are being looked after.

In the end, it depends upon how much the OP trusts her dad.
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So, to me, the interesting question here is, what does the OP do if s/he tells the facility that s/he is starting the Medicaid application and the facility says "we don't accept Medicaid under any circumstances" or "we only accept Medicaid after X months of private pay"?
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As POA you should be starting the Medicaid application.

Tell the facility that it is an unsafe discharge and you need guidance.

If you take her home, I assume you mean to your house, you just accepted the situation as your very own. Think long and hard before you go there.

Your dad can no longer care for her by himself, don't try to force him to do it. The stress of caregiving is more than you can imagine, he has reached his limit and he can become a statistic if he is forced into being her hands on caregiver.

Tell your mom that she just has to trust her husband and do her best with physical therapy and give it some time. Don't tell her that she is never going back to her house, let it play out with her while you deal with the financial situation as her legal representative. You can't really tell them anything because you don't know what is going on, but starting the Medicaid application will help calm the facility down.
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AlvaDeer Aug 2020
But the Mom does have assets, I think. Can she still start Medicaid app? The Mom currently has one half the assets shared with the Dad and the Dad is currently getting assets separated? I wonder if OP should have a lawyer to represent the Mom's portion of the assets at this time, or are they already separated, and this is why she is POA for financial for Mom?
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Don't take her home if you are not able to take over. It's obvious the caregiver cannot give them the care that they need and it's deteriorating their health in some way even though they say it. Keep them there and follow what the lawyer says. This is the best way to get her the best care she needs. If you take her home, she will refuse to leave and your father will not be able to get the help he needs. Taking her home you are taking responsibility and showing that someone can care for her. It won't be fair for her or your father. I know you care but you have to trust your father when he says he cannot give her the best care anymore.
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Do not take her home (where your father won't take care of her) or to YOUR home. Whatever you are told, it will not be temporary and they will not help you to find a placement for her.

Please consult an elder attorney ASAP.

Keep us updated.
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From everything I've read here on this forum there is no way your father can hide marital assets and dump your mother's care on the state, whatever he is doing is likely going to cause a very difficult legal tangle to sort out - I agree with Gladimhere that you my need your own legal advice.
Putting that aside, your father has the right to step away as a caregiver when it becomes too much, you need to figure out what kind of care your mother needs and how you can best provide it.
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The important question is, is this a facility that accepts Medicaid? If so, why is your father not working with them?

I sure hope that this is an elder are attorney who knows what he's doing.

There are some states in which "spousal refusal" is an accepted legal technique. I hope yours is one of them. You might want to Google that term.

https://ohioseniorlaw.com/medicaid-101-part-8-spousal-refusal-or-just-say-no/#:~:text=Under%20Ohio%20law%2C%20spouses%20have,the%20spouse%20seeking%20Medicaid%20eligibility).

The other sticky wicket is that YOU, as POA for your mom, have an obligation to do what SHE wants done financially.

Does your mother have access to her accounts that she can share with you? Do you trust your father? Does your mother? Or does mom need her own lawyer?
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gladimhere Aug 2020
That is an interesting article Barb. My question, though is that it keeps stating "his assets". There must also be her assets. Can he just decide that anything that may be held jointly are his? Those assets I would think are half hers.

OP needs a consult with an elder law attorney. Hopefully she can get one when she tells them it is an emergency.

There is the site AVVO.com that she could ask her questions as well and maybe get a quick response.
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Is this an elder law attorney? If not, get one. Mom is entitled to one half of their liquid assets in most states. So, there has to be a period of private pay until her half is spent down.

Do not pick mom up.
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The nursing home must not release her to an unsafe environment. Which means they will not just send her home. They may however find an excuse to send her to the hospital and then refuse to take her back. That is possible. But they cannot just release her. Under any circumstance, DO NOT TAKE HER HOME! You are unable to provide for her needs! I would advise contacting your father's attorney and go with his advice. The attorney has training and experience to know how to deal with this type of situation. The Nh will get paid, the attorney knows how best to go about it for all involved. Please get on board with your father and the attorney.
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