So... the PoA (child) is destitute, probably shouldn't be the PoA, but hasn't done anything wrong with the principal's funds. Unfortunately, she is the only one local to where the principal (mom) lives. She has loads of personal problems, including husband losing his income for a few months right before retiring and them needing to live 'somewhere'. So, we agreed to let them move into mom's house knowing they couldn't pay rent for a few months and even now at a heavily reduced rate compared to market value. It's helpful to have someone watching the house but the PoA always raises that 'some PoAs get paid to live in their parent's home', etc... She does very little PoA-wise... all bills are auto pay and mom is in AL and she rarely visits her. Still, she does carry that weight, I suppose.
We other siblings feel like she is just looking for a free ride. If the house wasn't there, she claims she would be on the street. They get SSA and a pension. They can afford to pay the minimum we are asking but even that seems offensive to her. Says mom offered for her to live with her years ago and that mom would pay all the bills. Always looking for a break. We other siblings are successor trustees and have heard from lawyers that we should be doing what is right to benefit our mom, even trying to bring income from the home and also that it's a conflict of interest for the PoA to live there free of charge... although, technically we can justify that it's for mom's best interest for someone to be at the house. Of course there is a time for kindness and sympathy but when the person does little to improve their own life, it's hard to be sympathetic. I have not even begun to describe any other issues the PoA and spouse have, but is that relevant to having the PoA live at the property? I hope all this makes sense.
Why is it such a concern with you and your siblings to give your sister who's down and out a bit of a break? Is her not paying enough rent causing hardship to you and your siblings? Is your mom not being cared for properly wherever she is?
You admit that it's best for everyone to have someone in your mother's house. Why does it bother you and your siblings so much that she isn't paying an amount that you find acceptable?
I don't know you or your family or what your situation is. Posts like this really bother me though. It seems to me that you and your siblings would rather see your own sister in the street in order to maximize what gets handed over to a care facility. Would you really prefer to give it over to a care facility rather than your own sister?
Your sister not paying to live in mom's house will not put any hardship on the care facility your mother is in. At some point even if your put your sister and BIL on the street , your mom will end up on Medicaid to pay for the facility unless she has LTC insurance.
Honestly, you and your siblings should cut your sister some slack and have some compassion. Also, be grateful yourself that you aren't on hard times like she is.
I should add that she does as little as possible and has no real sympathy or time for her mom for true loving care. Everything is a chore, probably because of all her other problems and frankly, her personality. The fact that she and mom have fought since she came out of the womb doesn't help... but mom is fading now (dementia) and that part is irrelevant.
Is sis paying mom's bills with the POA? Sis should at a minimum be paying utilities and property taxes.
I don't know what to suggest here but look at the entire situation. Maybe sis should be paying some reduced rent. Get with an elder law attorney for assistance on how to do this so that it does not effect mom's qualifying for Medicaid should she ever need it.
Sis is acting as PoA to pay bills to who needs to get paid.
She is begrudgingly paying mom some money for utilities but not enough to cover what I call all the base costs (monthly cost of insurance, taxes, pest control, lawn service and utilities), not even considering any 'profit' which we would get if we rented it out. So yes, all in all it's quite a reduced 'rent'... 1/3 of what it would cost anyone else. We feel that this kind of break can be given as 'compensation' for her PoA duties and for looking after the house.
Basically, she'd rather not pay anything... that's kind of why I started this whole thread.
There's no reason mom shouldn't qualify for Medicaid. She is spending down on normal everyday homeowner things as well as the high cost of AL. No hanky panky by any siblings. I won't allow it.
"...when the person does little to improve their own life, it's hard to be sympathetic..." That is very true. And I agree with you that living for free - not paying any bills or paying for any maintenance - in your mom's house isn't a long-term plan.
Even though she is POA, when your mom dies, the gravy train will come to a stop. And it sounds like your sister and her husband will not willingly leave that house. Perhaps she feels she's entitled to it or that it's her "inheritance" and she's taking it now.
I can understand your frustration and concern about your mom's asset. It sounds like things could get messy fast when your mom dies or runs out of money to pay for AL. Does your mom have dementia? Can you and your siblings come together and talk to your mom about your concerns?
What she has been paying is just covering utilities and a bit more... when she is reminded to pay each month. She complains that, 'well mom would be paying anyway if no one was living here so why do I have to pay'... always looking for a freebie. And we feel like she IS getting paid to be PoA by not paying 2-3 times what we are asking if she was living somewhere else.
BTW, the 'on the street' thing was only for a few months when hubby had no income or SSA due to timing of the loss of his job. They are actively looking for a new place but credit is so bad the will have to pay 2-3 months in advance, if lucky.
Yes, the gravy train will end at mom's passing and we have sad she will need to be out in 2-3 months after, or anytime starting now, so we can fix it up and sell it. Then she will get some cash that will help sustain her for some period of time.
Mom does have dementia. We siblings talk a lot but we get a lot of 'I'm the black sheep of the family' mentality and distrust from the PoA because her situation is so dire that she can't communicate and deal on a proper level (especially after 11:00 am when she starts 'quenching her thirst'. It's always someone else's fault, like one or all of her 4 or 5 husbands... whom she chose and is the single common denominator of all the marriages.
Anyway, I digress.... I'm glad there is anonymity here... :-)
I re-read your post and nowhere does it say your mother has dementia. If this is the case it is totally possible for her to create or amend her PoA. Is sis both the medical and financial PoA? Is it durable or springing? Everything the PoA does needs to be in her mother's "best interests" yet if sis is the caregiver, this task should not be onerous to her and anyone else in her family involved. It's an important and tricky balance, especially for adult siblings.
We have offered to relieve her of the duties to take away the burden since she has so many other problems, but she is, I know, fearful if she lets go of control of the bank accounts, we other siblings will mistreat her. (totally not true... our standards are much much higher than that. She has a trust problem.) Although, I suggest it also gives her some higher purpose in life.
The PoA is managing to handle the affairs, but not with much gusto. The actual direct contact and attention when needed for mom does seem onerous to her. (for example... 'why should I go and visit her when she just sits there and doesn't talk back or just looks around the room or at the TV?' Because that's what caring people do! You care for them. You respect them even though they can't return the attention and respect.
We are and have been familiar with the Medicaid 'planning' but at least two of us chose to allow mom (and dad for a time) to live in nice AL homes with THEIR own money THEY saved and not 'PLAN' the money away to someone who would just blow it all on their own life. I hope that make sense. Maybe we weren't offered enough planning 'options' to choose from. It's lucrative for lawyers to do that so of course, they encourage it, especially if it benefits those asking the questions.
What “trusts” are involved currently? A successor trustee deals with “trusts”. How do the trusts you hold impact directly on the POA?
Why are you dealing with “lawyers”? Why is more than one lawyer considered necessary?
If as POA your sister is meeting the terms of the legal document, how are “the lawyers” telling you to proceed? If there is NOT language in the POA to allow for her living in the house, what do the lawyers suggest SPECIFICALLY that you do to make the function of the POA correct?
The house is in the Trust, so we other siblings (two) as co-successor trustees, feel obligated and have been encouraged by discussions with lawyers to do right by mom and not show any conflict of interest with the PoA via a free ride. But again, that's our decision if we think she is helping mom's cause by living there, and she is, then it's not a conflict. But, it does seem only reasonable that she pay for base costs since she can afford that much and it doesn't deplete mom's resources faster. And, it seems even with the break in cost, she "can't" save to get ready to move out where it will cost her 3-4 times the minimum we are asking for.
As for 'lawyers', I got free advice, so took advantage of it. They both said the same thing... 'the PoA and Trustees need to do what is in the best interest of mom'.
Ultimately, the PoA is doing her job, albeit minimally. Not a whole lot to correct. You can't make someone care more, especially when they have a lot of other problems.
I know of no state that it is legal for a POA to have personal gain from their fiduciary duties as POA.
If the POA states that they can be paid, then they must keep track of what they are doing, how long it takes and then generate a bill for those services. They cannot just use the assets at their free will for their gain and that is the fine line your sister is walking.
I think that the estate, I am assuming that the house belongs to the trust, should have a rental agreement with your sister. She can live there but, she should be paying for all the bills. The estate should insure the property as though she was a regular tenant and she should have her own insurance. The estate should pay property taxes and she should be paying everything else. You should establish a fair market rental value and put that in the rental agreement, that way she gets to see how much she is saving by not paying rent and it creates a running total in the event she gets stupid about her POA duties.
If she wants to be paid for her POA services, if the POA even allows that, then she must provide documentation to prove what she is doing and have reasonable hours attached. POA does not mean that you must personally do hands on caregiving, it means you have the authority to act on behalf of the person, in a manner that they themselves would act if they were able.
I highly recommend having an attorney draw this up, the one that handled the trust might be able to do it or give a recommendation.
Sometimes we just have to prepare for the worse and expect the best. That's why the legal rental agreement and the POA payment paperwork, because death and money change people. When all is said and done, you guys could give her everything if you choose but, I recommend protecting everything legally, just in case.
At the end of the day, you have to look at the value of good family relations to your mom, it is after all her money and home. You just don't want anything to risk her care, well-being and future needs.
What is the real value of having your sister right there for mom? That should be considered in all this, because it does have a value, every if she wasn't POA or living in the house.
Best of luck, these are such difficulty situations.
Or they could just cut the sister some slack because she's all but destitute.
The problem I see is if Mom is ever on Medicaid. Her SS and any pension will need to be used to offset the cost of her care. Meaning that Sister will be responsible for bills, taxes and upkeep on the house. To remain there, she must show Medicaid she can afford to stay there. Medicaid uses HUD criteria to determine rent. With my nephew, who is physically disabled, HUD figures for a 4 b/r house rent would be $1400 a month. My nephew brought in 1k a month. Taxes alone were 6k a year. So even though he was a 8 yr resident, he would not have been able to afford to stay there. Even though a home is an exempt asset, Medicaid has rules about who can reside in the house.
Yes, if she runs out of cash, then all the basic expenses to keep up the house will have to be paid somehow. I need to understand if the expenses for keeping a house can come out of her income or if there is a requirement that they expect income from the property in order to get/keep mom on Medicaid so that her main income (SSA and dad's residual pension) can mostly go to Medicaid funding.
Last wrongdoings? You mean past? This is a lifelong pattern... all of it and is still ongoing and will be, unless she changes. She will die on the same path. She's got it good right now, in the house with very reduced 'rent'. She still wants more, I guess you could say. She is very good at making things sound reasonable to fit her narrative. All abusers are. They have to excel at it to make life fit their lifestyle and problems. No one is below being loved, but I think everyone can improve their life if they want to.
I suspect we'd need a lawyer because why? Because it 'looks bad' to have someone like her not only getting to live there for free but to actually pay herself (as PoA) to live where she won't pay? Did that come out right? Like a conflict of interest?
I'd be lying if I said I haven't thought about it from this angle, but why pay someone for barely caring for your mom and only looking for the next break or freebie. It goes against everything in me. In any case, it would only be for a few months and she's right back where she would be without the extra income from mom's estate, paying for her residence and depleting mom's estate faster, just to support her bad habits and inability to handle her own finances. BTW, which I and other sibling have tried our best to work with her on, creating budget spreadsheets, retirement income analyses and making various suggestions, but she will make no sacrifices to change her ways and make things better and will not be accountable for where all her money goes. Abusers aren't transparent.
Why should mom pay her to continue in this path? It's more detrimental than her having to scratch out her own existence. At least that's my and the third sibling's opinion. I know...we probably sound awful, but when does the abuser get to take some responsibility?
We will work it out in some balanced way, because we aren't total heartless siblings. We are already 'caving' by setting a minimum 'rent' requirement and forging previous shortcomings, just so we can survive this mess till 'the end'. Once again, she will not be held accountable and gets a break. Yes, she needs a break... she has for decades and mom and dad 'helped' her out. But who is going to give her the next break and the next one after that?
My situation is slightly different, but not where it matters. I'm the POA, and my brother lived rent-free with our parents for three years. He eventually moved out to an apartment and paid rent there with no problem. Not paying rent to my parents was their choice.
Fast forward to 2 1/2 years ago. Dad had recently died, Mom was in a nursing facility, and Brother needed to save some money. I needed the house looked after until we could sell it, so Brother moved back in.
However, this time he paid rent, and here's why:
That house is Mom's asset, not mine or his, and as POA (really, as her Trustee), my job is to manage her finances and assets. To allow someone to occupy her house rent-free is not handling her assets to the best of my ability, so I set a reduced rent and he's been paying it all this time with no complaints.
Point out to your sister that paying rent will be a forced savings account, and she'll get a percentage back as her inheritance when Mom dies.