My 79 yr old FIL made a choice last year to stop communicating with a younger family he used to be friends with after learning from others about gossip & lies being spread about our family by the husband and wife.
On Christmas day they sent my FIL a text asking to have lunch next week. Dad was hoping the time apart perhaps had made them less toxic, but just so he could feel safer from their gossiping ways, he replied saying he would have lunch with them provided my husband (his son) was present. This made them unhappy, so yesterday they called TX Adult Protective Svcs stating my FIL is being abused by my husband & I.
Today my FIL received a call from APS demanding he meet with their investigator. He told them the claim was ridiculous & a meeting was unnecessary. The investigator responded that if he refused she would bring law enforcement. He took her number and said he'd call back. He then called my husband to let us know what was happening. We told him we understand this upsets him but we know we have nothing to hide, and the investigator is only doing her job so there's no reason to be mad at her. We advised him to call her back and make an appointment allowing her to come to his home on Monday.
My husband is the only surviving child & MIL died 18mos ago. Dad struggled initially but he is doing better now. My husband is Medical & Financial POA but Dad is still making his own decisions. Yes, he is showing some forgetfulness, but he and my husband have him under the care of good physicians, and following the physician's suggestions, my husband & his father have set up smart and healthy safeguards. My FIL has his own bank account, pays his own bills, lives on his own, has an active church and social life. We, and his grandchild, have a healthy, loving & supportive relationship with him. The call to APS is just continued spiteful behavior from people who don't like that Dad has chosen to create healthy boundaries with them on the outside.
We are certain there's nothing that could be found to substantiate these absurd claims. But Dad wants to know what questions to expect from the investigator. He also wants to know if he MUST answer all questions posed. He says we don't have anything to hide, yet he doesn't feel his medication or finances are their business, and he definitely doesn't want information he shares to be given to the people who called in the ridiculous claim.
What specific questions should he expect? And should he have any expectation of confidentiality with APS; he doesn't want his private information given to the very people he wants healthy boundaries from.
Are there any repercussions for people who make false claims? There should be. What a waste of time for everyone because they are vindictive and like to stir the pot. So sad.
my Mom read the riot act at the “investigator” from APS. Told her that the neighbor had spent years looking for anyway, big or small, to cause the maximum pain to Mom and Dad. This investigator called me and accused me of abusing my parents.....but...unable to make any specific claims. I brought in the family lawyer....he was my co-POA and knew every move I made. The lawyer later told me that he demanded an investigation of the neighbor because of the years of abuse she had heaped on my parents....and he had court documents to prove it,
I have nothing good to say about APS. I do suggest that you and your parents prepare to defend yourself. You can understand that the report they have requires them to investigate...and having that accused abuser come to the interview isn’t going to happen. But...bring your lawyer. AND, bring civil charges against the neighbors....go get a restraining order against them. Abusing elderly is serious stuff, and what those neighbors are doing is abuse...just using the system to do it...and it is incredibly easy to get the restraining order. If you feel it is beyond what you can do...then hire an attorney. That is the only thing that finally stopped the neighbor,
If there is no abuse and nothing to hide, just cooperate. You don’t need to show up guns blazing, full of hostility and armed with a lawyer (do you know how much they will charge you????). Just stay calm and encourage dad to tell the truth. Also APS is not allow to disclose anything. They won’t even tell the friends who reported your dad what the outcome of their investigation is. Everything is confidential.
When APS visited my house "investigating" my mother's care, they introduced themselves (provided me with business cards), told me about the complaint they had received, and asked to speak with Mom. I walked them down the hall to Mom's room where they noted the bath transfer chair and grab bars in the family bath, the standard walker, rollator walker, bedside commode, lift chair, and adjustable bed in Mom's room; a wheel chair was in the guest bedroom. They asked her a few very general questions like "how are you doing", "do you feel anyone is mistreating you", "what did you have for lunch" (cleaned lunch plate was still sitting on bedside table), "does your daughter leave you here alone", etc. (APS spoke with Mom alone, but my baby monitor was on and I could hear it all.) They did not ask about her finances. They noted the info sheets posted on the wall with instructions for calling 911 and our address as well as directions on how to call me and use the HELP button on the wall. They asked me if Mom used the cell phone on her bedside table. I told them she still calls me occasionally but mostly she just answers it when I'm out of the house so I can check on her or when her sister calls. I told them whenever I leave her alone, I write a note telling her where I going and when I will be back. If something delays me, I will call her to let her know I'm running late. I'm usually out 25-60 minutes. The HELP button is a panic button setting the security system alarm off and I pointed out the siren is mounted outside to summons next door family and neighbors. There is a key available in a lock box outside. During the second visit required to close the case, they brought information about some programs (including adult day care) they thought would help us.
Hope this is helpful. I understand why you resent the intrusion, but the SWs are only doing a job that does need doing. They have no way of knowing which complaints are bogus and which are sincere until/unless they check up on the senior.
You absolutely mentioned private information being share with neighbors.
As far as I know, APS investigations are confidential.
I would meet with APS to address the concerns that have been raised, no matter who raised them.
APS is require by law to meet with him within 72 hours of the report. They just want to talk to him to ensure he is ok and not being held hostage or being stolen from.
You should setup the meeting, if you don't or if their questions aren't answered, then the situation looks suspicious. Being very open with APS is very important, no responding or being elusive will just extend the investigation.
By all means go ahead and demonise this younger family if you like. But if you substitute the word "concerns" for "gossip and lies" their behaviour makes a heck of a lot more sense. In what sort of ways was your FIL struggling after the loss of your MIL, and what happened during that difficult time?
If APS's main concern is that your FIL is vulnerable to potential abuse - e.g. isolation, coercion, neglect - they are obviously going to need to speak to him in private, away from any possible sources of the abuse, which necessarily includes his primary caregivers - DH and you.
If this younger family was critical of DH immediately after FIL was widowed, I can understand that this would not have endeared them to any of you. Such criticism when people are in crisis and having to make big adjustments is both unhelpful and hard to take. But that doesn't make them evil or toxic, they were concerned about their older friend who was going through difficult times. Since then, their friend has - as far as they can tell - been kept away from them. They are not wrong to want his welfare checked out.
It sounds as though the original source of the conflict is what was spread about concerning your husband around the time of his mother's death. This got back to DH who was understandably offended and upset; he addressed the issue with his father, who blamed the younger family. But what had FIL told them, at the time, in grief? The friendship is probably beyond repair, but I think it would be helpful to get the past in perspective and avoid blame as far as possible.
The complaintants are a husband & wife my FIL used to be friends with. They live 20+ minutes away and haven't seen or spoken to him in over a year until the call on Wed asking to see him. They have never been particularly close to my husband and apparently did not like that FIL said he'd only have lunch provided my husband is present.
For some perspective, my FIL started to distance himself after they made a REALLY big deal that they were not mentioned in my MIL's obituary in 2018. Went so far as to say FIL should re-write it! It was bizarre! Yes, they were friendly for many years but they are of no relation. After MIL's death, FIL was made aware of their gossiping about our family to others so he distanced himself. They did not like HIS choice and blamed my husband. It was HIS decision, not my husband's. These are the same people that caused FIL & MIL a lot of grief after MIL was diagnosed with terminal cancer. They constantly were over-stepping and attempting to insert themselves in family decisions regarding her care being decided wisely and correctly by doctor's. And indeed as it turned out, everything they kept pushing was improper.
I didn't "demonize" them; I am stating the facts. My MIL & FIL chose of their own free-will to distance themselves from this couple. After MIL passed, FIL continued to hear about their GOSSIPING (that is the correct word) about our family in regards to things like our choices for the funeral, and his choices for where he goes and with whom. Those are not "concerns," it's gossip. Who he plays dominoes with is none of their business. He has a healthy and active social life and they don't like that he doesn't include them. It's ridiculous.
do not think that the threats from APS are just to provoke a reaction.
whether it is the neighbor or a “friendly younger family”, the accusations can take on a life of their own.
bring a lawyer. Do it before there is a judge willing to accept any unfounded accusation from APS
At dinner with FIL tonight it was decided he will meet with APS on Monday so they can see he is doing great, AND he will have his attorney (long time friend) present to be certain FIL's rights are protected. The betrayal of this couple has definitely angered FIL, but we reminded him that elder abuse is very real & APS is only doing their job so no need to be mad at the investigator.
Coming into his home they will find a healthy, active 79yr old widower living independently in a clean home, paying his own bills, active in church, he walks 50+ miles/wk for exercise & has a more vibrant social life than I do. Lol.
FIL has doctors he likes, and a strong, loving & supportive relationship with his family. It's a real shame this couple continues to over-step but what would we expect from people who said FIL needed to re-write MIL's obituary last year because they were not mentioned. SO BIZARRE!
So while he has said he will allow APS to do their investigation, he will do so with his attorney present as a witness. Because you're right that an over-zealous social worker could potentially find fault in whatever they wanted, so he will comply while assuring his rights are intact too.
Thank you for making us think twice. ❤️
They also won’t share any information with anyone or say who called APS with a concern.
And have paper and pencil ready to note any suggestions that are made, to evidence your respect and concern for their involvement.
Your initial post and presentation suggest someone well educated, knowledgeable and proactive. If you were the APS examiner, what would you ask? I think though that you've probably already addressed the issues.
I don't know if APS contacts anyone else during these investigations, but if there are people in his church who could vouch for him and you, I would ask them if they're willing to offer insights.
If I were in your situation, I would be more than annoyed that this young family chose to meddle and underhandedly affect your lives. Rovana asked how APS would handle false claims; I'm not sure APS would even admit that they do or don't take action.
However, since I don't believe in letting outsiders hassle my family or me and getting away with it, I would mention that I know who the complainants are, and that I'll be considering action against them if they interfere again. You don't have to be specific, but I suspect APS will warn them. After all, they're wasting APS' time as well.
And for Rovana and anyone else who wonders what legal action could be taken, making false allegations, or defaming someone, would fall within slander if the charges were verbal, and within libel if "published" in writing.
I doubt an attorney would accept a case like this though, if this was the first and only instance. But he/she might write a letter, w/o making accusations (which would need proof beyond suspicion) but merely stating the law and that false claims against anyone might be grounds for further action.
I hope this works out well for you and your family, and also that you'll have time to post an update. And obviously avoid the young family that you feel contacted APS.
BTW, is this family having financial problems? Are they emotionally stable otherwise? There's a reason why they didn't want your FIL to be accompanied by your husband. And that makes me wonder if they were going to hit him up for money.
I would be there for support. Ask if the investigator minds. She/he may and you will have to go off to another room. I would try and talk to he/she before they leave. Say u know they can't tell you who filed the claim but you were wondering what you could do about a couple who your Dad has chose not to see. Explain that they had asked Dad to lunch and when he said his son would be with him, they weren't happy about it.
I would say that Dad is still "on the ball". He seems to be able to still make good decisions. I love that he thought to bring his son and the response they had. Showed that Dad can still size up a situation.
So not to worry. Just let them come, be welcoming, offer them a spot of coffee, tea or juice. Answer their questions honestly and without any anger. Tell them why he thinks he was reported.
And to tell you the truth it is this COUPLE I am now worried about and terrified of. I would NOT have any communications with them, and if, after this APS visit this couple interfere again I would assist Dad in getting a protective order against them so they keep their distance. They are clearly dangerous and have ulterior motives UNLESS there is something you are missing in all this.
Hope you will keep us updated; this is a fascinating one.
Yes, APS will respect his privacy. They will only report if they found problems they are following up on or if they found no problems and will not be back. This is a GOOD system. Reassure Dad it isn't APS that's the problem here. It is the couple.
We have a very good friend who is an attorney. We have reached out to ask if he would simply be present for the interview. Given FIL is under the care of a neurologist for memory issues, we all agreed it is in Dad's best interest to answer the investigators questions with his own attorney present just as a witness.
I'll let you know how it goes Monday.
"He may have to give signed permission for them to obtain Dr and ER records." Again, social workers do not NEED to obtain medical records nor are they qualified to review medical records.
"Just give them what they want." In my opinion, that is terrible advice.
Your father has a right to privacy. He feels that his life is being intruded upon by that "younger family". He put distance between himself and them for a reason, and should share those reasons with the social worker. From the little I know about APS, your father has the right to know exactly what allegations were made *before* letting the social worker into his house. He also has the right to refuse the assessment. He also has the right to have his son present if he feels more comfortable that way.
He should get the business card of the social worker in the event he wants to contact the social worker in the future about services, etc.
Remember that your dad also has Fourth Amendment rights and he does not have to waive his Constitutional rights. Mere suspicions do not rise to probable cause.
And anyone needs to be very sure when asking for a PPO. I got one for my parents and sister, and had to be very careful to only include actions that I could prove.
This might be an issue, as it may depend on the others to whom the couple is spreading falsehoods. They may not want to become involved, beyond having shared the backstabbing information.
She could also ask the police to become involved though, to "counsel" the couple. Police are good at determining when someone is lying, and just seeing police on their doorstep might be enough of a scare for them to back off.
However, I do think there's a motive to their actions, and I think I'd be looking at security for FIL, especially a front porch camera and motion sensor lights...just to be on the safe side.
During one of my father's home care stints following rehab, one of the social workers became extremely aggressive, insisting that she should be one of the first to visit Dad during the first week home. I disagreed; the nurse, PT, OT and speech pathologist were more important.
I'd met with home SWs before and although one was very helpful, it was my experience that they generally provided generic information, including on Medicaid, which didn't apply in our situation. And the other information was repetitive; I had already done my research.
This SW continued to be aggressive, so I challenged her and asked her specifically what she planned to discuss (I don't need to hear the same information twice) that needed to pre-empt actual medical therapy. She said she needed to have access to his financial records so she could make assessments on what services were available for my father.
I told her the appropriate way would be to advise my father and I of the services and merely state the financial criteria. And I'm sure there was no way she could even have guessed whether his Veterans' benefits could have been enhanced. She didn't agree and threatened to "report" me, but didn't say to whom. She really overstepped her bounds on that, and the red lights began flashing.
I denied her access, called the service and said I don't want her involved at all.
I still haven't figured out why she wanted to see financial records, but there was no way in hell she would see them.
Had dinner with FIL tonight and he agreed he will meet with APS and answer their questions to the extent they will clearly see he is fine, and he will have his family friend that is an attorney present just to be a witness to the conversation so nothing can be misconstrued.
Elder abuse is very real so APS is just doing their job. No blame on them at all, but we would be negligent to not assure Dad's rights are not violated in any way. Since we cannot be there, then having his attorney present as a witness is wise.
Will keep y'all posted as to what happens Monday.
they like humor but only when they deem it in good taste ..
not happ' in ' ..
Take care.
And I know from your professional and rational method of handling the situation that you have advice to share as well.
Even though we post suggestions based on our own experiences, there is no "one-size-fits-all" response. Feedback from the OP (positive or negative) is extremely helpful as we ALL continue to learn.
It will take a few moments to type this out, so please bear with me...
My 79yr old widowed (since MIL died April 2018 after 53yrs of marriage) FIL was contacted on Dec 27, 2018 by APS stating an accusation of abuse had been reported against my husband (FIL's only living child) and me. FIL told Erika from APS that any such accusation was "absurd" and that he had no need for her assistance. Erika informed FIL that he did not have a choice and that if he refused to meet with her, she would get the police involved to force his cooperation in their investigation. She was not rude, but forceful.
FIL is a highly educated man, very socially active, lives independently, keeps his home clean, pays his own monthly bills, and outside of his controlled HBP he is physically fit even walking upwards 50miles per week. FIL has been retired since 2015, but was a very well-respected dentist in his community for 45years. In 2015, upon retirement, FIL and MIL moved to Texas to be closer to us. FIL has long-time trusted CPA, good doctors, and trusted attorney. FIL still has 3 living older siblings in OKC that he spends time with at least twice a year. FIL's son (my husband) is his only remaining living child and they have a very close loving relationship. FIL began demonstrating memory issues a few years ago, nothing severe, but enough for MIL & FIL to wisely suggest they work with their son to set up medical and financial POA's, Medical Directives, update their wills, and go over all their accounts so their son would be prepared with passwords and such with a good handle on everything in their world. All very wise!!!
Upon doing so, it was revealed that FIL had made financial decisions with large sums of money since his retirement. Sometimes the risk paid off. Unfortunately, not always. He had no idea how to re-coup the losses or how to even go after the people who owed him. We helped him hire an attorney who is in the process of handling that now. MIL and FIL agreed their son should be sole trustee of MIL's family trust.
They added their son's name to all their accounts so they could feel confident someone else had eyes on their stuff so no one would take advantage. Their son went to great lengths to always describe all of these changes as creating a "partnership." He never wanted his dad to be emasculated or left feeling his poor financial decisions meant he was an idiot or would lose his independence. All of these moves were done with care and love, and with the participation and approval from MIL & FIL.
And thank goodness they were, because MIL was diagnosed in Jan 2018 with stage 4 cancer and died just 4 months later. As sometimes happens with a traumatic loss, FIL's slight memory issues became much bigger issues over-night! He seemed to lose the ability to reason and he became paranoid of even his son. All exacerbated by a woman who appeared just before MIL died, and who endeared herself making him lose all ability to see her manipulation. I won't go into the details except to say, it was a very long and painful 18 months that FIL now describes as feeling like he was in a fog and under a her spell as she worked over-time to separate FIL from all his family and friends, and his money.
As many of you know, with POA you are often left cleaning up after their bad choices. But you cannot stop their bad choices before they happen. Stopping the bad choices before they happen can only be done with conservatorship. My husband never gave up on his dad. He was stronger than I could have been. He just kept communicating with love and prayer to his dad hoping his dad would come out of this before it was too late. He scheduled his dad to meet with his pastor & to see a grief counselor. He made sure his dad was hearing from his CPA & his attorney. And despite all her attempts to separate FIL from his family and long-time friends, we would not stop. All of these people had to work as a village to keep showing FIL the red flags. It finally worked. He broke up with her in Oct 2019.
She did not take it well.
THANK YOU!
The interview was VERY tough on him mentally, and he was the first to admit had his attorney not been sitting there, he feels he would've "blown it."
When we asked what he meant, he said she went out of her way to bring down his defenses. He said, "while that sounds like a good thing, for someone like me, it's not because I cannot usually tell when I should keep my mouth shut. And she kept asking questions outside of the scope of the allegations. So had the attorney not been present, I would've said things that could easily have been twisted."
This whole thing breaks my heart!
I will add that a demand letter was sent stating the couple must stay away from FIL and the entire family, and failure to do so will result in legal action. It is not a restraining order, as we don't have grounds at this time, but it starts a paper trail should we need to show these people are a problem.
This has been a learning adventure I wish upon no one!
A question asked, opinions given, some recommendations taken and some not, feedback given on how things are going. Thank you inntruth! A learning experience for us all. :-)
Yet when I'm feeling most sad & overwhelmed by it all, I remind myself of the promises made to my husband to hold his hand and walk with him no matter what we face. All the chaos his dad has brought us will never outweigh my love for my husband. And to be honest, often I find myself marveling at the love, support, patience and endurance my husband has demonstrated for his father. My husband lost his sister who was his best friend and only sibling, then his mom in only 4months after her cancer diagnosis. And in a lot of ways, that same day he lost his mom, he lost his dad because his FTDementia seemed to fall off a cliff that day too. It seems since then we've been fighting to keep Dad as strong as possible while batting the vultures off him who take advantage.
My parents died suddenly with no illness, so this has all been a new road for me for sure. And it is painful! And oh so heartbreaking! We learn ugly things we wish we didn't need to know. But I've also seen what an amazing husband I am married to. I know no matter how dark this tunnel gets for my husband and I, we'll be ok as long as we keep holding hands.
I wish I could impress upon all single people that choosing a Godly partner is the most important decision you'll ever make.
Thank you for the prayers.