If an appeal over penalties changes nothing, will NH throw my Dad out or where would he go?

you have dpoa for dad right? if so, I'd asap - like mañana - start calling pro-bono legal clinics on behalf of your dad. All law schools will have them and also call your Area on Aging to see who in private practice does them for elderly. The AoA is a part of your Council of Governments which is a regional planning body and clearinghouse for a lot of joint fed/state/private programs. All states have COGS paid for by your tax dollars. There will be someone to help you. You kinda imho need someone to go with you to the hearing as you're probably not able to get your situation or point across clearly. They can get a handle on the timeline of this clusterF that makes sense and that you were not out for your own gain. Really if anyone was it was Sissy who gained - take copies of those certified letters too.

You need a letter from the medical director @ the NH as to dad's status and that he needs 24/7 care or death will happen to take to the hearing.

You need to show some fiduciary duty too…..like that you have done whatever to have dad pay in a timely manner his co-pay (or his SOC - share of cost in Medicaid speak) to the NH from him SS & retirement income. Also do a sheet showing how you pay for his extras ( those $ 100 items you mentioned) & again in a a timely manner. Take some photos of dad & seriously he needs to look pitiful in the shots. Waivers on transfer penalties are done, there's a couple on this site in the past who have gotten them but you need someone to be your ally in the presentation as you are just going to be too emotional and flustered. You want to look presentable at the hearing but nothing expensive and sensible flat shoes and no dangling or moving jewelry (think Penny's rather than Macy's)

You know ward of the state situations sometimes are for the best - the court appointed guardian doesn't want family to be out of their life (unless there was abuse) but family need to realize that the guardian is in charge. Often court appointed is done because family cannot due to their own medical issues or due to military deployment. And if the situation can change, then sometimes the guardian will ask the court for a review & release of their status so the elder goes back to family oversight. If you can show PTSD or whatever else of your own medical situation & your spouses death so it's bolsters your case that what happened was not for your gain but just done in overwhelming panic.

About the payment rate, if you want dad to stay in this NH & it seems that this NH really likes dad (like his care plan is easy for them to accomplish), they often will negotiate down what is due to be what Medicaid would reimburse them with a smallish surcharge. Also I'd look to see IF dad could qualify for hospice - hospice is paid for by Medicare and although it does not pay for their room & board costs at the NH, it does provide for extra nursing staff to come in and provide care for dad. This can be a huge plus for the NH as it takes all the care responsibility off of their staff and shared now with hospice. My mom was on hospice for 18 months and really the hospice staff (3 X a week for an aide & RN once a week) worked well with NH staff…mom was never clearer or had better care of her bedding due to hospice being there to help out. Plus hospice provided for a specialized mattress and gerichair & geribathing chair, which made it easier for all to care for her.

About the "not very nice places", the guardian can often get things done in short order & faster than family ever would. If the guardian has other clients at the facility, they are going to do whatever to keep the guardian (and not have a report sent to the state as to delinquencies) happy so the elder benefits. You could find that dad being a ward, gives you the opportunity to spend time with dad but without worry about how things are being paid or reported. Good luck & try to keep an even keel.

The money your sister took off with? A person applying for and recieving Medicaid cannot "Gift" money to anyone. They also cannot sell assets at below fair market value. You may need to Get your State Bar to look into some of the practices that this Attorney did with your Dad's estate. Sorry this happened to you when you were trying to do the right thing. It is not your responsibility to care for him but if you are the Financial POA it is your duty to pay his Nursing Home Bills with his money and estate. You may have to file a police report for the money your sister took. In my state that is acceptable as part of the Hardship application process. Good Luck

After about 9 mos working with this guy, I just felt funny about it. We were denied once for lack of providing requested documents (third party - had no control over how quickly they came, all my things were in timely). So he filed an appeal which led to a hearing. Before the hearing could take place, DHS updated a policy that if any clients were denied on timeliness that they would be given an addl 60 days with no appeal necessary. He sent me that about 2 weeks before the hearing. But somehow the law office SAID they could never get anybody to call them back saying that the hearing was unnecessary so therefore we had to show up. Side note - he had another file and said he was also there to take care of something for it. We waited those couple hours and the hearing person acted like she was surprised we were there and I lost it (I was already on edge knowing I was paying him all that money to just wait) when I found out we didn't need to be there. I became so upset that they left me in there and went in another room. And we walked out together. I never did see him do anything on the other case. i went straight to the NH thinking I had good news to tell them, that we were extended. Guess what? They already knew that. I asked how that was - they made a phone call to the state. That's when I decided to fire that guy. The NH got the answer about whether a hearing was no longer necessary - and he never could? Funny thing is - he's emailed me in the intervening months. I let him know that I was now working with Senator Kirk's office (not about him) and since that time --- he's been really "helpful". Sending me forms to use, etc. No bill. It seems a little fishy. I absolutely want to do the right thing. If I could sell my condo, tho I don't have a WHOLE lot in it, maybe $15,000 --- I would give them that. The absolute best days I have going to visit are the ones where I can take my dad's check in there --- just ashamed I cannot pay more.

what would you do if you sold your condo? isn't that where you live? my dad only had $15,000 when he passed away - his last CD, after he'd been milked and bilked out of almost a $100K - and when it came down to the end it was a matter of hospice, going home vs having been told there was inpatient hospice at the hospital where he was to being told there wasn't because it didn't have a contract with the hospice agency to, after talking with the state to get the hospital billing office to come talk to us, almost deciding to use that and private pay for him to be able to stay there, and after everything that's happened I almost wish we had. So now what is this additional 60 days for? to try to get this hardship application in or approved?....Are you the financial POA? The money your sister got is a similar situation with my husband's aunt and uncle; they gave their money to their grandson, as well as some he just took; they tried to get them to file a police report on him over it but as so often happens they wouldn't so now they have somewhat of a similar situation - going to go look at your other response because of some things I've seen about that

just wanted to say further I've seen those type of instructions regarding going out and buying for dad because anything spent on him is, of course, not counted against him then in penalties, such as you're facing now and often there are things that they may not need then but will - like is there still nothing your dad needs? how did he get his wheelchair? Does the NH provide his incontinent supplies? guess just wondering if possibly you were thinking that because of his condition there was nothing necessary that might at least have been, although I understand that being not how you do things; I was raised that way as well; my dad didn't buy a lot of things that might not have seemed "necessary" to him or me at that time but I learned later they at least really could have - and were by others - been but when you've been raised to do without there's a lot that's not considered "necessary" that others do - not quite sure what you're saying about the other families - do those resident's have it to give the nursing home? do they have a home? they may not; is that what you're saying? did they take him "Medicaid pending"; it's my understanding that at that point you don't have to be paying anything, not until they do complete their process, which is what I'm understanding they've done now, right? was it the elder law attorney you'd hired who went with you, not to legal aid, right? to the Medicaid office, right? were you not able to get either your psychologist or psychiatrist to go with you? although, thankfully, in that sense, you ended up not having to go through a hearing, after all - but that lawyer telling you you could gift yourself $8,000 out of the sale of your dad's house?! but you have given the rest of the proceeds of the sale of your dad's house to the nursing home, right? this is the very thing that so many elderly and/or their children talk about not wanting to see happen, which is why so many do do asset protection, to try to prevent this. So did his house not bring even enough to cover the balance the nh says you owe?

DebD- if a resident is"Medicaid Pending" they HAVE TO PAY the facility - whether a NH or AL that takes a waiver - their monthly income less whatever their state has for their personal needs allowance (ranges from $35-105). It's their co-pay or SOC (share of cost) in Medicaid speak. For my mom, she got $800 SS & $1k retirement each month; her state TX has the PNA @ $60; so every month, even during her Medicaid pending period of 5 months, mom had to do her copay to the NH of $ 1,740.

Often the copay comes as a total unexpected to family. If the elder has monthly expenses (mortgage, house ownership costs, insurance premiums, CC debt, etc) someone in the family has to pay for all if they want to keep whatever going. This is kinda why it's so very important to do a spend-down where it does the best long view good for the elder. Like paying for dental work or burial policy is better than paying off a CC. If they have a mortgage (horrors!) all this is especially sticky as there is no $ to pay mortgage and if property doesn't sell immediately, it goes into foreclosure. But whatever their situation, copay has to be paid to facility.

The nursing home did take my dad pending medicaid. When I first applied and had a phone interview, they asked about his income and I told them then - that I was giving every dime to NH. That's when she told me, it wasn't necessary but that didn't make sense to me so I just continued doing it. I only needed my dad's help in the very EARLY times I took care of him - the last 2 years I did not, because I had turned 50, and the survivor benefit from my husband went into effect. After that I didn't need anything from my dad.
When I started with the elder care lawyer, I couldn't think (stress, exhaustion make my ADD horrible since the brain surgery). When I first saw him I said not interested in asset preservation, he's head spun. I was adamant that I didn't need anything else - my dad helped me enough to get us to that point - his response was "well let's dont be dying on any swords here". That's what they do, I get it but my only concern was getting my dad's medicaid approved. When my sister was still involved, she discussed with me getting the house put in my name. Making the house my permanent address so a clock would start running by the time anything happened to him. She said as long as I lived there 2 years we would get around capital gains taxes. I did that in April 2011 (which it turns out, IL didnt officially implement the Fed rules until Jan 2012 - the one thing I did get from the lawyer). I had a quick claim deed signed and notarized 4/11. After I realized my sister wasn't going to lift a finger, I never filed it and tore it up in 2013. I would never have cut her out completely, because it wasn't my money but I sure didn't have to do a thing so that she could get hers any sooner. I would have let the State have it before her. What I learned about the rules, is if I HAD done it then before the rules changed - I'd be sitting on the house with no problems. The penalty back then started running from the time of the transfer. After Jan 2012, the penalty didn't start running until the time of application. The ONLY regret I have about the house is I didn't have it together emotional to make it presentable for sale and let the attorney rush thru an auction "as is". It was paid for. It sold for about $40,000. The buy put in another $10,000 updates and sold it for 90. I hate that if I had enough energy to do that - I could have given the nursing home more. I just didn't understand pennying everything to death - like out of that $8000 - he instructed me to pay a full month and then gave me a number of days for the other. I just paid the whole thing, it was senseless not to - no matter what - let it apply to the balance.
We bought a transport chair for his car so that I could take him to an osteo dr and follow up oncology appts. I can't get him or that thing in and out of my car. Other than that - the NH provides him a chair. I pay for his monthly supplies approx $100/mo. We bought some clothes, not many out of the house proceeds, but going forward I have no problem supplying whatever he needs. The car is over the value of allowable so I'm selling it - what comes with that is I'm withdrawing any follow up appts of any kinds - it's the only way you're allowed to keep the car. That was a hard decision to make - He had cancer surg at the start of this and now I'm just discontinuing - I can't get him in and out of my car. I guess the osteo doc is not necessary since he's in a chair - he had almost no cartilage left in his knees and the doc was shocked he was still walking. I didn't realize just how much I was "propping" my dad up in a lot of way so when he went into the NH and I was no longer doing for him - I was shocked at his dependency and it tears me up.
what would I do without my condo - I would rent a small apt somewhere. I want to do that anyway - the plan for this place was to be here for when my husband needed AL - he didn't make it thru that plan. I KNOW it would be good for me to get out of here but I've been too depressed just to pack it all up and not just pitch it all. Seeing that place across the street is just a reminder.
Nobody has ever said anything to me about a co-pay and I don't see on the bills that there is any other monies being applied to his care. We have a balance of about $49,000 over 2 years now.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do if they start shuffling him around esp if it's not somewhere I can get to him easily. He's about 15 mins away from me now. I get sick every time I go to my mailbox. When they finally gave me some determination, that they wouldn't pay until 11/2016. Initially I started think - okay, I can take out all of my living room furniture and put in a hospital bed, etc. Just drove my nuts trying to figure out a way I could it - feeling like I can't was a blow. It doesn't happen often but aside from the problem with bathing/toileting him - sometimes he acts aggressively and they sedate him. That would be impossible for me. The doctors just keep giving me pills. They're watching me pretty closely right now - I didn't do it purposely but drank on top of some of the meds - pretty heavily. Ended up an hour away from here in freezing weather in my pj's, no shoes and no coat. Fortunately to a friend I trust. Been there a ton of times, and glad the neighbors knew me because I knocked on the wrong door initially. Didn't know that or that I was even there until I woke up the next day. My friend said I passed out sitting on his toilet and when he got me up - he said I just cried for an hour before I went back to sleep. Lucky I didn't kill anybody getting there and that realization knocked some sense into me. Every rejection/denial/setback just gets worse because it's just been SO damn long since I had a life when I didn't wake up with some concern or another over my dad. I haven't restarted living my own life and just having trouble getting started.
We had a lot of unusual problems - like a stalker lady. She's lucky to be alive. Crazy woman even got in my dad's house 5 days after he was in the NH. The upside for me, probably the saving grace, I gave my dad's last couple years some joy. I hate seeing someone so brilliant as he was so gone. He would literally eat glue if you put it in front of him. At the Thanksgiving dinner they had sprinkled silk leaves on the table - he tried eating them. I haven't learned how to "step away" from it. Thanks for listening.

igloo, I'm sorry, I either misunderstood something somewhere or said something wrong - yes, I do understand the "resident" has to give up "their" "income" to the NH; in my friend's mother's situation, yes, they did do that but somehow I'd gotten the idea (and somewhat still do) that emerald was doing more than that - actually I haven't really seen (I don't think) anything about her dad's income but guess doesn't really matter since, seemingly, this balance is beyond that anyway and that's what I meant about not having to be paid while pending - now, having said that, yes, if "resident" still had a mortgage (and, yes, horrors! guess another - or maybe "the" reason to not have one) what is the reason for keeping all that going - would you be expecting them to come home? now, again, my friend's case, she had her daughter, son-in-law and granddaughter living with her who, ostensibly, could have kept all that up - not that they did, but that's a different story - such that they did eventually move out and let everything go, although not sure anything's actually been done with it but also, yes, I understand where emerald's lawyer was coming from with parts of the spend-down, anyway - trying so desperately to get hub's aunt and uncle to buy a burial policy but they've just heard so many horror stories about them that they won't so here they sit....but, yes, I do understand copay with their income - sorry for the confusion

My dad gets almost $1200 in SS and a small pension about $600 a month. I write every penny about his account. If I wasn't in such a hole financially after all this - I would contribute as much as I could. After the first rejection, I was a hysterical mess at the NH---- I told them I would do whatever I could, asked them if they could give me a job there and I'd give them every penny. They said they couldn't do that. Not sure if they didn't have jobs but I got the impression there's a problem with that. I'm looking for a job now. I can meet my bills on the survivor benefit from my husband died but I could contribute more if I had a job and made extra. It would probably be good for me not to be solely focused on this and for being more social. I have so isolated myself and rarely socialize that I almost feel feral. LOL

and, emerald, I wonder if they misunderstood as well and thought you meant more than dad's income, but the whole amount of the nh cost but I'm actually intrigued - though I do want to say; I feel I haven't addressed this, that I am so sorry you're having/had to go through this right on top of losing your own husband - just want to say I know somebody - well, several, but actually somebody who had a very similar situation, although I think somebody did find hers but still she was away taking care of her mother, somewhat like you with your dad, when it happened and she's had a hard time of it, too, like you, not sure she could have turned around and done what you did, although maybe in a way she did, think she did at least go ahead and move in with her mom, but it was both her parents so she at least had her dad, who helped take care of her, think must have helped her get a job, which she was able to do, but think only because of the kind it was - but what intrigued by is your statement about survivor's benefits at 50 - I know of 3 others who lost their husbands in that age range and never heard anything about either of them getting them; know for sure 1 didn't till at least 60 so if you did that's great; at least not still having to deal with that. I don't understand a whole lot about the capital gains stuff, just know I was told with my dad's house, at least after he passed away but maybe it's the same thing somewhat, that the basis value would then be what it was assessed at at time of his death, not what he paid for it, so if I sold it fairly soon - or at least if the value didn't go up - was going to say if I didn't get that much for it, but it does have to be at least FMV, right? - then there wouldn't be much gains for capital anyway. Possibly, though not sure since not really understanding, wish we'd done the same thing same time since that's when my dad had his bad fall and I would have thought he would have wanted to since he had been before my mom passed away the year prior but we had some issues trying to get some things taken care of then so never got into it and maybe the fall did something because when I brought it up then he couldn't even really comprehend it so just didn't get done. And don't think understood they'd changed the rules that penalty doesn't start until Medicaid applied for or maybe I thought it had always been that way, unless that's just the 2 yr. thing because thought they'd had the 5 yr. lookback for a while. And guess don't really understand either; was your sister going to get paid for the house? how? thought it was your dad's? I do understand about the situation you got into about the sale of his house, though; I was tried to be rushed into doing the same thing; well, somewhat still am, but didn't want to either so haven't done anything yet but still not sure I understand - so this $8000 came from the sale of the house...right? so what happened to the rest of it - I know you said the lawyer got his cut but then what about the rest? I understand, I think, you paid the whole $8000 to the NH but what about the rest of what was left of the - well, guess getting closer maybe to, what, just $20K? after the $8K and the lawyer fee
except, get it, you bought the chair - and then beyond that you still have the house proceeds money - that you're using to pay the $100/mo. supplies bill - not out of your money, like I somehow thought and not out of his personal allowance money he's allowed to keep for that purpose? so you're trying now to provide for his needs out of the house allowance money - after - you've applied to Medicaid - and put him in the nh? - yea, hm....not sure I understand about the car - you could keep it to take him to appts.? but you're selling it to put on the nursing home bill? or you were in order to keep the money that you're now being told you can't keep anyway? so then why go ahead and sell the car, especially if that means you can't get him to his appts. and especially if that means he can't get there at all - will they transport him? or at least call an ambulance?
and you're not saying you'd give the nh what you made off selling your condo, are you?
are the bills not showing his income - I'm sure he "is" getting at least SS, right? - being applied to the nh? if not, I'd sure check into that
and as far as being shuffled my friend was concerned about that as well - they had some issues with her mom and they ended up sending her about a couple hours away but it was only temporarily and happened to be right when she was going that way anyway so that worked but then when time for her to be discharged from there it had been long enough (which isn't long, is it) that they didn't have a place to take her back where she'd been so were going to have to place her a hour away but she asked for just a little more time and something happened that she was able to get her back but, yes, I do understand, that, I guess, is the bad part of all this, isn't it..she's got her mom about that close, too. But sounds like in your case it might not be a bad idea for them to move him about an hour away, say, close to your friends, and you sell your condo to get away from your dad's house that's not his anymore and he's not there and move there as well - that sound like a plan? But, yes, Emerald, I can certainly understand what you're actually going through with your dad - it liked to have killed me seeing mine like that - honestly, I wish, in many ways, he hadn't even had his last couple years - what exactly are you saying you're discontinuing regarding your dad's cancer?