Is it unreasonable to ask the one sibling who is living closest and overseeing parents (who just moved near them) to keep a spreadsheet of all expenses being spent on elderly parents? Just for transparency sake? They pay their daughter and boyfriend to do work for them; they also have very expensive tastes.
If ur parents are paying a grandchild to care for them, there should be a contract. This will be needed if your parents ever file for Medicaid. Medicaid is going to want to know where that money went. If no contract, Medicaid may look at it as a gift and that will cause penalties. That contract should have signatures of all 3 parties and notarized. Me, I would have a lawyer draw it up.
If your parents are competent, they can spend their money how they see fit. If diagnosed no longer competent, then its up to the POA to keep records of their spending. My Mom had her bank statement as her record. The money went in, the money went out. Everything was paid by check. If I paid out of pocket for anything I, I wrote a check to myself once a month, put the receipts in an envelope and wrote the check # on it. Mom had a sm pension check ($200) that she cashed for her other expenses. When I took over, I kept track of that spending and put the receipts in a monthly envelope.
It is unreasonable to ask a sibling to keep a spreadsheet on parents that are competent. And if sibling does not hold POA (which is only in effect if the principle has been found incompetent) thats not their responsibility either. If the sibling does hold POA on an incompetent parent, they need to keep very good records but, they are under no obligation to show any if their siblings the records. They are representing the principle and are really not suppose to reveal the principles financials.
Are the parents judged incompetent in their own decisions and care, and is someone acting as guardian or POA financially?
The POA or guardian has a fiduciary responsibility to pay no more than fair market value for services and to keep meticulous records of all expenditures. Also a duty not to enrich themselves. That's if parents cannot make their own decisions, and a POA is assigned. The POA has no duty to share information with the family, but if the family suspects abuse and brings a court action the POA is responsible to the courts.
If, however, parents live independently and have skilled kids living in their same area, it is certainly up to said parents whether they wish to pay their children to fix the roof, shop, take them to appointments, or instead hire an independent operators to do such things.
A competent parent owes NO EXPLANATION to ANYONE on how, why, where money is spent.
A POA does have a fiduciary duty to keep meticulous records on every single penny in and out of the parent's accounts, BUT the duty to SHARE these records doesn't extend to family, but to the courts only.
If some sort of fraud or abuse of your parents is suspected could you explain it to us a bit?
AND
is it justified?
I’m going to guess that the fear is that it’s that your parents do not have over 1M+ so will run through their savings and then need care in a facility and the folks flat won’t have the $ to pay for it and Sissy will expect you to share in paying for both your parents costs of private pay of care in a facility, as we cannot put our parents in one of those Medicaid type of places amongst the unwashed, as someone has very expensive tastes. Is that it?
we need more of a backstory….., so what’s going on? Are your folks both competent and cognitive? Who’s POA? What exactly are the grandkids doing? Are they living with the grands and getting paid? Are IRS rules for household employees being done? What is your position in the overall family dynamic? Is someone in the family yammering on that no worries as there’s no more MediCal look back in CA anymore even if things went bad?
"People will fight over your money and anything you leave,
but won't fight over taking care of you while you're sick and dying."
Just bc your sister and her bf are related to your parents doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid for their work. Everyone has to earn a living and in home senior care alone is a very expensive cost these days, call an agency to find out the going rate in your neck of the woods. And handyman services, lawn care services, cleaning services, etc, are all astronomically expensive as well. So if I were you, I'd get a good idea of what these services are worth before asking for detailed spreadsheets of any kind. Just so you don't wind up with egg on your face. 😁
If you are saying your PARENTS have very expensive tastes and worry they'll run out of money, then I've misinterpreted your post and I apologize. If your folks are of sound mind, they'd have to agree to keeping such a spreadsheet, which I'd never do myself. What money I spend is my business. But that's just me. How much, if any, money is left over for "inheritance" purposes at my death is irrelevant to me. I've raised my kids to be successful enough on their own w/o relying on inheritance funds down the road.
If one of MY sisters had asked me for a "spreadsheet" about my mom's finances and how I was handling them, I would have a brief 2-word response to them; and it would not have been "happy birthday."
Then Rude Aunt insisted that I must keep a diary of who he saw, his symptoms, what he said, business conversations, banking, etc. I didn’t have time. All of his care was on me. She blithely assumed that I should and could make everything transparent to the whole family, and it was indeed laughable. I fell into bed every night exhausted to the bone, and also I had my own medical issues and felt sick much of the time. Rude Aunt refused to help in any way. I asked.
If someone isn’t doing the work, they have no right to demand that others do more work. Period. I am estranged from Rude Aunt, and that’s fine with me.
note that I said rental market rate… not top tier asst living rate. My dad does not do any ADL. We are preserving his funds for when he really needs… memory care (he is close).
Perhaps parents do pay them for their work. It's possible you parents are the kind that want to pay for help. If sib wasn't there, wouldn't parents have to pay someone else to do the tasks?
If your parents are still of sound mind, how they spend their money is really their business. I've been in the caregiver role and when the time came to take this on, it pretty much consumes your life. Like having a toddler, it's not really an 8-5 job. You drop what you're doing when the need arises. Consider all they do for your parents, how much do you think it would cost them if outside services were hired? And most important, are your parents happy and safe?
I'm 100% in agreement with you. Maybe it's the wisdom of age? : )
Only people who are involved with care for the parents should be privy to financials.
Transparency is not owed to ghosts.
A few thoughts; Do you think your parents are being taken advantage of and is that why you would like a record? Is there some other risk you can't define? And I'm not sure who has the very expensive tastes.
Just: is the poster sure? Unless there's solid reason(s) to be untrusting, and unless poster is willing to step into her sib's shoes, in all ways, ask yourself 'am I'm sure? Is it worth it?'.
Humbly, Molly.
I've had the DPOA for both my parents and stepfather since 2010. Having it, prevented me from having to explain each dime and penny that was used for their care/needs to my siblings. I took it upon myself to keep a record of what I spent on their behalf with receipts just in case it was needed for Social Security, State and/or Federal Tax or Medicare reporting.
When my mother and stepdad consulted an elder care lawyer and updated their Medical Power of Attorney, Living Will, etc. the lawyer told me my keeping the receipts and a record of expenditures would be extremely helpful and possibly necessary when the estate went to probate.
Every state is different, so I would recommend consulting with an attorney, to make sure your parents finances are protected, and you are reassured that everything being done is above board.
Does it matter? It's the parents' money. If hrey want to indulge their daughter and her bf (who are their caregivers) then they have every right to.
- Burnt Caregiver
No, it's not unreasonable if you'd like to destroy the sibling relationship you currently have in place, assuming there is a decent one in place. Asking for "transparency" and then saying your sibling and bf do work for your parents "but have expensive tastes" suggests you feel they're ripping your parents off. And a spreadsheet will prove it, one way or another. That's how I'd interpret it, as an insult, and a fine thank you for all the hard work I'm doing to take care of them and their home.
- Lealonnie1
how about you also help out your parents, so the work isn't all dumped on your sibling? sometimes, non-helpers are very interested in money, and not so much in helping, or in making life easier for the helping-ones, or in how their parents are doing.
- bundle of joy
excellent responses. Thanks
This question profoundly affected me and I have been following the responses since it was posted. All good but these especially spoke to me.
When I can move beyond my pain. I hope to share my story for advice.
I am so very grateful for this site. I read every day.
Thanks 🩷
-Fawnby
Only people who are involved with care for the parents should be privy to financials.
Transparency is not owed to ghosts.
-Conniecaretaker
great answers 🩷
But it still hurts.
Ask yourself this - is the reason you want to demand this information is because you are concerned about your parent's care or is it greed and fear that you aren't going to get what you think you deserve?
When he told me it was none of my business I told him he could do the caregiving from then on & walked away.
I really don’t understand why everything has to be kept secret from other siblings unless they’re causing problems
My husband has handled it differently with his siblings. One just wanted to know they were o.k. and asked for a summary of their assets, monthly income and expenses, and front pages of banking/investment statements on occasion. He gives that summary and first page of banking and investment statements about every six months. The other sibling mumbles under her breath that we should be tracking expenses and giving her a spreadsheet. Well, we do track expenses but her mother when legally capable said it was unnecessary to provide details so we ignore that sibling.
The entire reason for that poor relationship with one of the siblings is complex and I hope you have a better relationship with your sibling. If you do, you might talk to your parents and/or the sibling to ask if they are willing to share an overall view because you want to know they are o.k. and if you may have to plan for helping out financially one day. You also want to be reassured that if they do need to apply for medicare or VA assistance, that the sibling as POA is keeping the records to so that they were not gifting their assets away to qualify. And if they are unwilling to share and you have nothing more than unsupported worrying, respect your parents choice.
I wasn’t resentful of my sibling having POA but don’t expect to sit back & do nothing to help while I’m running around ragged doing everything & then try to tell me how you want things done.
My father had passed years ago so my mother was the one that gave him POA under his direction. She had given Drs permission to speak to me bc I was the one taking her to appts not him. He then told Drs to no longer speak to me.
Unless you’ve been through this with a sibling you have no idea what I’m talking about. Some are just controlling, spiteful & greedy
He moved a woman he had met on a dating site into my mom’s home bc she could no longer care for herself. She was not qualified to do any caregiving & I recently found out that 2 home care workers reported her to APS for abusing my mom & he knew about it & did nothing.
He also had my mom’s trust amended removing me to benefit himself 100%. My mom had dementia for quite a few years when he did this.
So don’t assume it’s sibling jealousy over POA. My mom has since passed after contracting covid bc they didn’t keep her safe
I’ve never been privy to knowing about my parents finances, and it’s a relief. At the beginning of this memory loss and parents poor health journey, I assured my husband our money will never be used to contribute to the upkeep of their household. They did not support us, anymore than we will support them. And now for the biggie. We expect nothing, no financial windfall, at the end of our parent’s life, on either side. We will be fine getting NO legacy, no money, nothing. And way too many people are hanging in there, for what they get, wanting to make sure all the money isn’t being spent on their elder/s, and it’s pathetic.
Our youngest sister never left our parents home, and has never fully supported herself. She never even bought herself her own vehicle. They have all been supplied by our parents. So hoping she is managing the finances good enough to get mom and dad to the end, and if not, she has assets to sell. Will I help her do that? No. I expect she will be financially fine, once mom and dad are gone, and with luck, she will move somewhere warmer, far far away, so we do not have to watch her fall apart, in the same way our parents did, as they got older.
Having zero interest in “what money and land and property” we get, once mom and dad are gone, is a relief. I love mom and dad dearly, but they made many poor choices, and putting their youngest in charge, made her boss over the other three daughters. But the only thing she is boss of is our parents. The oldest two will never fight her for the job, the third makes sure the caregiver knows how grateful she is that she is not doing the job, and the youngest has no idea how poorly she has handled her relationship with her older sisters, but when this is over, our parents are gone, not caring about how the will is handled will make it easier to grieve mom and dad.
It isn't just for transparency, it could be a legal matter - either now or down the road.
The question is:
Who is financially / fiscally responsible for your parent(s) ?
Whoever has this responsibility may need to justify to a court or attorney by providing bank statements and income going out / coming in.
As a fiduciary over the last 2-1/2 years, I tracked every penny I spent and kept receipts. As a VA fiduciary, I was legally mandated to an accounting (annually, or sooner, as they may request). If they are using parent(s) funds inappropriately, ie buying them a tuna fish sandwich while the daughter and boyfriend have a crab salad for lunch ... they may need to re-pay these funds to an 'accounting' after they pass
Or
it all depends on who is managing / responsible for finances now.
And, if you feel the situation needs to be investigated, hire an attorney (who could/would hire a fiduciary to manage the funds / expenditures) I
It is entirely possible that some of their 'very expensive tastes' is (or was) money that is earmarked for you in your parent(s) Will. Even if not a financial consideration for you, it IS the responsibility (ethically and legally) of family member(s) / whoever is charged with managing funds of a parent(s) to do what is in their best interest, not in the best interest of themselves, a daughter or her boyfriend.
Any request / whatever you do, put it in writing. If it were me, I would likely hire an attorney for at least one consultation to find out how they recommend you proceed (an elder / estate attorney).
Perhaps some of the money they are spending could be yours if / when / as instructed in a Will.
Do your parent(s) have a Will? Who's possession is the Will in ?
You can frame it 'for your own protection,' which it is also.
Are your parent(s) medically deemed incompetent ?
This is usually when someone else takes over financial decisions/expenditures.
And, if they are competent, this is an entirely other legal situation, potentially.
The bottom line to me is:
Are they being unethical? taking advantage of (you?) your parent(s) (and lining the pockets of their daughter/boyfriend). If they are not hiding anything, they should be 'happy' to show you / your attorney 'the books.' Likely, they won't be that happy about it. You likely will be risking whatever positive relationship you now have or however it is, it may become more stressed. Especially, if you upset the financial apple cart. And, it appears there are some rotten apples in there with the gold ones they are finding...
Gena / Touch Matters
All I can say is, someone who rambles on and on, has something to hide. If you’re innocent of any financial abuse, or over-treating yourself, then you’d keep it simple, Maryyvonne: “I didn’t commit financial abuse”.
People who know they may have taken more money than they should have, come up with a million justifications: “I scrubbed the floor with my jeans…I deserved new jeans…I deserved a new car…”
I understand you were the one who was accused of financial abuse. I understand Maryyvonne, that you’re OP. Your initial post was written under a different name.
I do understand that you’re not accusing: you’re the accused of financial abuse. I understand also that you’re saying: since I Ventingisback am saying you might not be innocent, I myself must have committed financial abuse. No, I haven’t committed financial abuse.
First:
I’m not quoting you. That jean quote is an example of what someone might say.
Second:
You said “Having POA, I was entitled to be compensated.”
No.
POA-people do what they do, for free. You’re allowed to be reimbursed for expenses. You’re not allowed to be compensated (earn money). To earn, profit, you need a caregiver contract.