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Is it unreasonable to ask the one sibling who is living closest and overseeing parents (who just moved near them) to keep a spreadsheet of all expenses being spent on elderly parents? Just for transparency sake? They pay their daughter and boyfriend to do work for them; they also have very expensive tastes.

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I saw ur response to Alva. You told ur story as maryyvonne. There is no way we can follow you if you are using two names. No one knows you are under 2 addys. So we had no idea that ur post was a brother asking you for proof. I, personally, thought it was you asking for yourself.
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If ur using two names, that is very confusing for us. Your history will not show your previous questions. As MaryYvonne, your father has been taken away by a brother and stepbrother and you have no idea where he is, the last time I read your post. Since MaryYvonne has more history, maybe you should ask the Administrator to close this post to stop future postings.
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Well, I am confused.
What's new, huh?
Now Mary Yvonne says she IS the OP and is posting under two names?

I won't be returning to this thread.
Mary Yvonne, and RLong, and whoEVER IN THE WORLD ELSE------You NEED TO KNOW:

If you are POA (and yes I WAS one as well as Trustee) you must keep meticulous records of every penny in and every penny out of your elder's accounts.
PERIOD.
FULL STOP.
THAT IS BY LAW. Whether you agree with it or not and whether you like it or not a Fiduciary standard under the law is one of the highest duties under the law. If you don't do this you will be held accountable under the law.

I am off this thread now; All take care.
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I replied to this post early on and read it so differently. I thought the OP was asking if she had rights to ask that of a sibling. Not that her sibling was asking it of her. This is what happens when questions are asked like this.
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AlvaDeer Jul 2023
You are right, JoAnn in how you read this post. I think MaryYvonne is off on her OWN story and I guess triggered by this above. She doesn't feel that the person managing care for an incompetent elder owes anyone an explanation. She is wrong. The POA owes an explanation to the courts if they ask. And ONLY the courts. But the POA better have the files and receipts ready because anyone caring for an incompetent elder can be accused of fraud and they need careful records to prove they didn't.
And nope, re her post below, she can't in fact buy blue jeans out of her parents money when they are old and incompetent. She CAN with a good attorney get a shared living expenses contract done, but she cannot just decide what she wants to do.
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Maryyvonne,

All I can say is, someone who rambles on and on, has something to hide. If you’re innocent of any financial abuse, or over-treating yourself, then you’d keep it simple, Maryyvonne: “I didn’t commit financial abuse”.

People who know they may have taken more money than they should have, come up with a million justifications: “I scrubbed the floor with my jeans…I deserved new jeans…I deserved a new car…”
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ventingisback Jul 2023
I do have POA, as do many people on the forum.

I understand you were the one who was accused of financial abuse. I understand Maryyvonne, that you’re OP. Your initial post was written under a different name.

I do understand that you’re not accusing: you’re the accused of financial abuse. I understand also that you’re saying: since I Ventingisback am saying you might not be innocent, I myself must have committed financial abuse. No, I haven’t committed financial abuse.

First:
I’m not quoting you. That jean quote is an example of what someone might say.

Second:
You said “Having POA, I was entitled to be compensated.”

No.
POA-people do what they do, for free. You’re allowed to be reimbursed for expenses. You’re not allowed to be compensated (earn money). To earn, profit, you need a caregiver contract.
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It is imperative that they track all expenses, and keep original receipts.
It isn't just for transparency, it could be a legal matter - either now or down the road.
The question is:
Who is financially / fiscally responsible for your parent(s) ?
Whoever has this responsibility may need to justify to a court or attorney by providing bank statements and income going out / coming in.

As a fiduciary over the last 2-1/2 years, I tracked every penny I spent and kept receipts. As a VA fiduciary, I was legally mandated to an accounting (annually, or sooner, as they may request). If they are using parent(s) funds inappropriately, ie buying them a tuna fish sandwich while the daughter and boyfriend have a crab salad for lunch ... they may need to re-pay these funds to an 'accounting' after they pass

Or

it all depends on who is managing / responsible for finances now.
And, if you feel the situation needs to be investigated, hire an attorney (who could/would hire a fiduciary to manage the funds / expenditures) I

It is entirely possible that some of their 'very expensive tastes' is (or was) money that is earmarked for you in your parent(s) Will. Even if not a financial consideration for you, it IS the responsibility (ethically and legally) of family member(s) / whoever is charged with managing funds of a parent(s) to do what is in their best interest, not in the best interest of themselves, a daughter or her boyfriend.

Any request / whatever you do, put it in writing. If it were me, I would likely hire an attorney for at least one consultation to find out how they recommend you proceed (an elder / estate attorney).

Perhaps some of the money they are spending could be yours if / when / as instructed in a Will.

Do your parent(s) have a Will? Who's possession is the Will in ?
You can frame it 'for your own protection,' which it is also.

Are your parent(s) medically deemed incompetent ?
This is usually when someone else takes over financial decisions/expenditures.
And, if they are competent, this is an entirely other legal situation, potentially.

The bottom line to me is:

Are they being unethical? taking advantage of (you?) your parent(s) (and lining the pockets of their daughter/boyfriend). If they are not hiding anything, they should be 'happy' to show you / your attorney 'the books.' Likely, they won't be that happy about it. You likely will be risking whatever positive relationship you now have or however it is, it may become more stressed. Especially, if you upset the financial apple cart. And, it appears there are some rotten apples in there with the gold ones they are finding...

Gena / Touch Matters
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Here’s how me and my two year younger sister are handling how our youngest sister is handling our parent’s money…..she does whatever she wants, and we say nothing. Our parents put her in charge, and she will not even let us help her take care of our own parents, so she will be held responsible for every last decision made, cause she makes all of them. It is as dysfunctional as it gets, but that’s life with severely co-dependent family members. Mix in dementia, and it’s a nightmare. She orders non stop from Amazon, gets our parents anything they want, and herself, and life in their three bed two bath condo is getting crowded, but she has full controlled and she’s made sure we understand that, this year. So far she’s got it under control. I could throw a wild card in there, and let her know she needs to be keeping detailed record of every dime spent, cause we know she is NOT doing that, but we gave no interest in our parent’s money. We can take care of ourselves, and feel more people should do the same.

I’ve never been privy to knowing about my parents finances, and it’s a relief. At the beginning of this memory loss and parents poor health journey, I assured my husband our money will never be used to contribute to the upkeep of their household. They did not support us, anymore than we will support them. And now for the biggie. We expect nothing, no financial windfall, at the end of our parent’s life, on either side. We will be fine getting NO legacy, no money, nothing. And way too many people are hanging in there, for what they get, wanting to make sure all the money isn’t being spent on their elder/s, and it’s pathetic.

Our youngest sister never left our parents home, and has never fully supported herself. She never even bought herself her own vehicle. They have all been supplied by our parents. So hoping she is managing the finances good enough to get mom and dad to the end, and if not, she has assets to sell. Will I help her do that? No. I expect she will be financially fine, once mom and dad are gone, and with luck, she will move somewhere warmer, far far away, so we do not have to watch her fall apart, in the same way our parents did, as they got older.

Having zero interest in “what money and land and property” we get, once mom and dad are gone, is a relief. I love mom and dad dearly, but they made many poor choices, and putting their youngest in charge, made her boss over the other three daughters. But the only thing she is boss of is our parents. The oldest two will never fight her for the job, the third makes sure the caregiver knows how grateful she is that she is not doing the job, and the youngest has no idea how poorly she has handled her relationship with her older sisters, but when this is over, our parents are gone, not caring about how the will is handled will make it easier to grieve mom and dad.
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I would tell my brother to "F" off if he ever asked me such a thing. The sibling who is caring for their parent and "doing" all the work doesn't need to provide the other sibling with anything. A spreadsheet? Really? When my brother decided to liquidate all my mother's assets and use it to buy him and his wife a home and moved my mother into that home, I didn't get involved. But when his wife started physically abusing her, I let my mom move in with me with no assets left and only SS coming in, I would be insulted to be asked to provide an accounting of what was being spent. Money is the root of all evil. I don't care about the money I care about my life, my husband, children and grandchildren. The train wreck my mom and brother caused in this whole escapade created 15 months of living hell for me. I am so thankful I am finally out of this whole mess.
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AZDaughterinLaw,
I wasn’t resentful of my sibling having POA but don’t expect to sit back & do nothing to help while I’m running around ragged doing everything & then try to tell me how you want things done.

My father had passed years ago so my mother was the one that gave him POA under his direction. She had given Drs permission to speak to me bc I was the one taking her to appts not him. He then told Drs to no longer speak to me.

Unless you’ve been through this with a sibling you have no idea what I’m talking about. Some are just controlling, spiteful & greedy

He moved a woman he had met on a dating site into my mom’s home bc she could no longer care for herself. She was not qualified to do any caregiving & I recently found out that 2 home care workers reported her to APS for abusing my mom & he knew about it & did nothing.

He also had my mom’s trust amended removing me to benefit himself 100%. My mom had dementia for quite a few years when he did this.

So don’t assume it’s sibling jealousy over POA. My mom has since passed after contracting covid bc they didn’t keep her safe
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Ah...sibling mistrust...seems common. Did the parents give your sibling POA? If so, they put their trust into your sibling to handle things and respect that. Your sibling has a fiduciary responsibility to your parents, not to you. But, that being said, when my brother was POA, I just wanted some reassurance that she was o.k. financially especially after being in a nursing home for a while. My concern was not mistrust of my brother but planning to co-share expenses if her income/savings/investments would not cover her expenses. I never asked for information regarding her net worth, income or expenses.

My husband has handled it differently with his siblings. One just wanted to know they were o.k. and asked for a summary of their assets, monthly income and expenses, and front pages of banking/investment statements on occasion. He gives that summary and first page of banking and investment statements about every six months. The other sibling mumbles under her breath that we should be tracking expenses and giving her a spreadsheet. Well, we do track expenses but her mother when legally capable said it was unnecessary to provide details so we ignore that sibling.

The entire reason for that poor relationship with one of the siblings is complex and I hope you have a better relationship with your sibling. If you do, you might talk to your parents and/or the sibling to ask if they are willing to share an overall view because you want to know they are o.k. and if you may have to plan for helping out financially one day. You also want to be reassured that if they do need to apply for medicare or VA assistance, that the sibling as POA is keeping the records to so that they were not gifting their assets away to qualify. And if they are unwilling to share and you have nothing more than unsupported worrying, respect your parents choice.
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I was the one caregiving for my mom but I didn’t have POA & had no say about her health care…..my sibling did.

When he told me it was none of my business I told him he could do the caregiving from then on & walked away.

I really don’t understand why everything has to be kept secret from other siblings unless they’re causing problems
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AZDaughterinLaw Jun 2023
Have you ever thought your parents gave him the POA, put their trust in him and maybe didn't want their personal financial information shared with others? Sounds like you were resentful of your brother for being given POA. How is your relationship with your parents and brother now? Did your parents go into a facility? I hope you find a way to establish a good relationship with them.
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My sisters, both older than I and completely uninvolved in our mom's care, did this to me. About three or four months ago, I was "ordered" to meet them for lunch in a city halfway between where we live, and they bombarded me with questions and veiled accusations. Not necessarily financial questions, but they wanted to know banks, accounts, beneficiary info, my attorney's info, etc. And me, being the baby of the family (at 58) and desperate to keep the peace, complied. Sort of. I didn't give them an accounting of what's going towards Mom's care, but I did list relevant addresses and phone numbers. I wish I hadn't now, because they've completely ghosted me. Their kids - all adults - have ghosted me AND their grandmother. I haven't communicated with either of them in two months and they haven't returned the communication I sent then. It breaks my heart even as it angers me to my core. The day will come, after Mom is gone, that I intend to tell them all goodbye and to not let the door hit them on the ass on their way out. I don't need them or want them in my life if this is how it's going to be.

But it still hurts.

Ask yourself this - is the reason you want to demand this information is because you are concerned about your parent's care or is it greed and fear that you aren't going to get what you think you deserve?
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dafilia Aug 2023
I asked about my parents' finances. My parents have very little. What little they do have - I will not be taking any of it. I asked because I wanted to fully understand the financial situation as we await the next shoe to drop in their in-home care situation.
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If someone isn’t doing the work, they have no right to demand that others do more work. Period.
-Fawnby

Only people who are involved with care for the parents should be privy to financials. 
Transparency is not owed to ghosts.
-Conniecaretaker

great answers 🩷
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Jada824 Jul 2023
And if you don’t have POA you shouldn’t be doing the caregiving in the first place……..it’s the responsibility of the POA. Lesson learned the hard way!
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Yes. It is unreasonable to ask the sibling who is "overseeing" the parents' care and lives. Another word for that is called taking responsibility.Your sibling is taking responsibility for your parents.
- Burnt Caregiver

No, it's not unreasonable if you'd like to destroy the sibling relationship you currently have in place, assuming there is a decent one in place. Asking for "transparency" and then saying your sibling and bf do work for your parents "but have expensive tastes" suggests you feel they're ripping your parents off. And a spreadsheet will prove it, one way or another. That's how I'd interpret it, as an insult, and a fine thank you for all the hard work I'm doing to take care of them and their home. 
- Lealonnie1

how about you also help out your parents, so the work isn't all dumped on your sibling? sometimes, non-helpers are very interested in money, and not so much in helping, or in making life easier for the helping-ones, or in how their parents are doing.
- bundle of joy

excellent responses. Thanks

This question profoundly affected me and I have been following the responses since it was posted. All good but these especially spoke to me.

When I can move beyond my pain. I hope to share my story for advice.
I am so very grateful for this site. I read every day.
Thanks 🩷
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RLong87: If you were to ask for a spreadsheet of expenses, perhaps you'd best be prepared for possible backlash, e.g. the caregiving sibling may balk at being questioned. Who are the ones with expensive taste - the daughter and bf or the parents?
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BurntCaregiver Jun 2023
@Llama

Does it matter? It's the parents' money. If hrey want to indulge their daughter and her bf (who are their caregivers) then they have every right to.
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My response may be in the minority (after only reading a few of the responses to you) and that's ok. My first question to you is, "Does the caregiver have a financial durable power of attorney?" If not, whoever is doing the expenditures, I would "STRONGLY" recommend they get one if the parents are mentally able to do so. That will help if a legal issue arises.

I've had the DPOA for both my parents and stepfather since 2010. Having it, prevented me from having to explain each dime and penny that was used for their care/needs to my siblings. I took it upon myself to keep a record of what I spent on their behalf with receipts just in case it was needed for Social Security, State and/or Federal Tax or Medicare reporting.

When my mother and stepdad consulted an elder care lawyer and updated their Medical Power of Attorney, Living Will, etc. the lawyer told me my keeping the receipts and a record of expenditures would be extremely helpful and possibly necessary when the estate went to probate.

Every state is different, so I would recommend consulting with an attorney, to make sure your parents finances are protected, and you are reassured that everything being done is above board.
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I haven't read any other responses yet; here's my thought: I moved into my mom's house when she still had most of her faculties and hadn't become infirm (yet), after I found myself unexpectedly single after 30+ years. More than anything else, I went to collect myselfemotionally; finances were the least of my thoughts (but I was fine). My mom declined rapid in my second and future years there; and my temporary residence became an 'I can't leave now' situation. For three years, my older and younger sister became increasingly critical of 'my' access to mom's checking account and debit card (all three daughters were on mom's account). One was in another city 300 miles away, one was in town but worked 60 hours a week. Fairly quickly, my mom's interest in going to the grocery store faded, even though I was driving. I thus did all her shopping for her. I put gas in her car that I only used when taking her to her numerous weekly appointments. That was my life. Upshot: After having to field their frequent veiled criticisms (the only time they ever contacted my mom or me was to criticize), I gave them 60 days notice that I was leaving the state--too far away to be the scapegoat, though I didn't tell them that. J

Just: is the poster sure? Unless there's solid reason(s) to be untrusting, and unless poster is willing to step into her sib's shoes, in all ways, ask yourself 'am I'm sure? Is it worth it?'.

Humbly, Molly.
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Firstof5 Jun 2023
I agree with you. And I don't even actually trust or like my sibling who is taking care of mom's money. My mother is extremely toxic and I'm willing to give up the money and not have to deal with her.
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I have so many questions without context of health, mental wellness, living arrangements, financial security.

A few thoughts; Do you think your parents are being taken advantage of and is that why you would like a record? Is there some other risk you can't define? And I'm not sure who has the very expensive tastes.
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My opinion:

Only people who are involved with care for the parents should be privy to financials.

Transparency is not owed to ghosts.
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Davenport Jun 2023
OMG, Connie! 'Transparency is not owed to ghosts.' I wish I'd read that 5-6 years ago when I was painfully dealing with my two absent ghost sibs!
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Yes. It is unreasonable to ask the sibling who is "overseeing" the parents' care and lives. Another word for that is called taking responsibility.Your sibling is taking responsibility for your parents. It is not for you to insist that they record every penny spent pending your approval.Also, people often forget that people have a right to spend their own money, even when they're elderly. So if your parents like to spend their money and indulge the expensive tastes of themselves and their caregivers, that is their right to do so.It's their money, not yours. You are not owed transparency on how they spend it. I was an in-homecaregiver for many years. I can't even count the number of times adult children would approach me because they were concerned on how much mom and dad were spending on things like food and entertainent. I'd tell them the same thing I'm telling you.It's their money, not yours and they have a right to enjoy it for as long as they can.
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Davenport Jun 2023
Thank you. I can remember being concerned that after my dad had died, she has two 'eyelid lifts' (she was 60-ish at the time). 20 years later, I wonder where the hubris of that concern came from; I wasn't in the best financial situation, either then. And in fact, my dad had left her extraordinarily well cared for financially.

I'm 100% in agreement with you. Maybe it's the wisdom of age? : )
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Yes, it is unreasonable! Who has time for that? I have access to my mom’s checking and savings account. My sister has POA and access to her other funds. Mom’s money is to take care of her daily expenses, including her caregiver (40 hrs a week). I make a note in her checking account when funds are used.
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If this sibling has a history of exploiting others, then it's time for other siblings to be more on-site and observant of care being provided to the parents. In other words, if you think the sibling would use/financially abuse them, you (and the other sibs) didn't step up at the time sibling uprooted his/her life to move closer to them. And if you think this person is crooked with the money, why do you think there would be any kind of accuracy in a spreadsheet or a financial accounting.

Perhaps parents do pay them for their work. It's possible you parents are the kind that want to pay for help. If sib wasn't there, wouldn't parents have to pay someone else to do the tasks?

If your parents are still of sound mind, how they spend their money is really their business. I've been in the caregiver role and when the time came to take this on, it pretty much consumes your life. Like having a toddler, it's not really an 8-5 job. You drop what you're doing when the need arises. Consider all they do for your parents, how much do you think it would cost them if outside services were hired? And most important, are your parents happy and safe?
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As a caregiver who keeps spreadsheets but does not share them with my siblings, who have become hostile, if I were to share this information with them, they would criticize it no matter what. So my thinking is I will share my household accounting for parents (now just mom) if they will share their household accounting and I can see what they spend on their food and household items, etc. That is the only fair way in my opinion.
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97yroldmom Jun 2023
Loved this Allison. I can just image the fluster if they had to present their records.
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I am poa for my mother. I have a sister who occasionally dreams up things for me to do, apparently feeling I don’t have enough to do. I have a stock answer which is “I am unable to do your homework assignments. If you want mom to hear something/know something, you need to tell her. There is a miraculous invention called the telephone and I suggest you use it.”
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Who has POA for your parents? It starts when your parents are no longer of sound mind to handle their own affairs.
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What do you spend you spend on your parents and how often do you visit them ?
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i am caregiver to my dad. He lives with me and pays rent at rental market rate. I include all meals (he pays for his own junk/soda/beer.) I have a brother and sister. To date, no financial contention. I share a brief yearly with siblings and with any large expense. if ever asked for records, it’s all electronic. I don’t keep receipts… I put memos on his transactions in the bank records. I don’t have time as I already have way too many jobs. If you have access to bank, and assets are at a top tier bank with a decent digital platform, use it to your advantage. otherwise, I agree with the below comments, pay to play situation.

note that I said rental market rate… not top tier asst living rate. My dad does not do any ADL. We are preserving his funds for when he really needs… memory care (he is close).
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This reminds me of a situation in my family. Dad was sick, then in hospice, I employed caregivers in his home and managed everything. Running the household, cooking, hosting visitors, taking to appointments, dealing with his business, my mom, his girlfriend, his schedule. I moved in with him and had to arrange for my own home to be taken care of, my job, my business, my cat, and the rest of my life too.

Then Rude Aunt insisted that I must keep a diary of who he saw, his symptoms, what he said, business conversations, banking, etc. I didn’t have time. All of his care was on me. She blithely assumed that I should and could make everything transparent to the whole family, and it was indeed laughable. I fell into bed every night exhausted to the bone, and also I had my own medical issues and felt sick much of the time. Rude Aunt refused to help in any way. I asked.

If someone isn’t doing the work, they have no right to demand that others do more work. Period. I am estranged from Rude Aunt, and that’s fine with me.
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I keep an excel spreadsheet for all caregiver expenses paid to private pay aides for last 6 years. I am daughter/caregiver to my mother. For me, it’s not difficult since I have an accounting/tax background. I have experience with the MS Excel program when I worked for CPA firm. For someone without this knowledge, I don’t know if they can produce an excel spreadsheet. Maybe just a list of expenses on a sheet of paper would work? Other expenses such as supplies or prescriptions I list on tax return, which I also prepare for my mother..so that’s all accounted for & categorized. In any event, records should be kept best as they can. It may not be perfect, but that’s ok. BTW, my one & only sibling, an older brother, has never once dared to ask me if I keep track of expenses for our mother. I’m doing everything & he is grateful for that. He thinks I’m doing amazing job. He listens to my complaints….I can’t picture him wiping our mother’s tush…Hugs 🤗
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pearl1962 Jun 2023
I wish I had a brother like yours, I am in your same situation, doing everything for mom, after doing for daddy and my stepfather before they passed. Unfortunately all I get are accusations of theft and no thanks at all, just grief. I keep the records of all expenses, and my husband and I make up the lack of funds to cover her home ourselves. Now he wants to have her guardianship and conservatorship, nope not happening, the fight is on, so be thankful for a brother that realizes what you are doing and appreciates it.
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No, it's not unreasonable if you'd like to destroy the sibling relationship you currently have in place, assuming there is a decent one in place. Asking for "transparency" and then saying your sibling and bf do work for your parents "but have expensive tastes" suggests you feel they're ripping your parents off. And a spreadsheet will prove it, one way or another. That's how I'd interpret it, as an insult, and a fine thank you for all the hard work I'm doing to take care of them and their home.

Just bc your sister and her bf are related to your parents doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid for their work. Everyone has to earn a living and in home senior care alone is a very expensive cost these days, call an agency to find out the going rate in your neck of the woods. And handyman services, lawn care services, cleaning services, etc, are all astronomically expensive as well. So if I were you, I'd get a good idea of what these services are worth before asking for detailed spreadsheets of any kind. Just so you don't wind up with egg on your face. 😁

If you are saying your PARENTS have very expensive tastes and worry they'll run out of money, then I've misinterpreted your post and I apologize. If your folks are of sound mind, they'd have to agree to keeping such a spreadsheet, which I'd never do myself. What money I spend is my business. But that's just me. How much, if any, money is left over for "inheritance" purposes at my death is irrelevant to me. I've raised my kids to be successful enough on their own w/o relying on inheritance funds down the road.
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notgoodenough Jun 2023
Amen and amen.

If one of MY sisters had asked me for a "spreadsheet" about my mom's finances and how I was handling them, I would have a brief 2-word response to them; and it would not have been "happy birthday."
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